Saving Lives

Abrasax · 10-27-2007, 07:45 AM

This started as a reply to the "allowing someone to die" thread, but i figured that it deserved it's own thread.

We only pretend to care about people other than when they directly interfere with our lives. The money we spend on frivolous things- dvd's, clothing, tv's, cable could easily be spent on saving the lives of other people. Any new pair of jeans you buy could allow somebody for a week. Our mentality is "we can't save everybody so we might as well make ourselves happy". But only subconsiously, usually. Yet, if somebody directly interfered with your life, people would view you as a complete asshole if you didn't give up some of your comfort to save them. You would feel like an ass. Why don't you feel like an ass already when the computer you're staring at could save at least a dozen lives?

Anyway, I'm a selfish bastard like everyone else but it makes me sort of sick to see people wearing Nike shoes, or business suits, or who live in a big house, pretending to care about others more than themselves. If somebody really and truly cared about others more than themselves, every dollar they earned would be going towards feeding other people (and maybe enough to keep themselves alive as well, but only so they could continue helping others).

Does anyone else see where I'm coming from?

**Ristaron** · 10-29-2007, 02:00 PM

Mother Teresa lost her faith in her belief of God for a while, and assumed that -- in order for the world to be just -- agony was a blessing. Consequently she gave horrible treatment to those in her hospital, seeking to bestow on them the blessing she had been given.

I don't know about you, but I would rather look out for myself these days.

Static · 10-29-2007, 05:30 PM

While I do agree with you to some extent, virtually every single individual person in the world has exactly the same amount of will, self control, self discipline, motivation when they come into the world, the exception being people born into slavery (a lot less than it used to be). So I see it as everyone has pretty much a lot of the same opportunities as everyone else does from the beginning. I think people develope that mantality because you have to work in life for what you get, if you don't work, you won't get anything. There's a million different kinds of work too, so when someone sees someone else in that type of position, it's more of a 'he didn't work hard enough' type thing, and they don't take into account the guys previous experiences in life that may have put him where he is today. All in all, you alone are the only person that can help yourself in the long run, and if you decide not to take advantage of situations and grow financially as a person, why should anyone feel sorry for you and feel like they should give what they've earned so that you can survive?

**Brother of Yeshua** · 10-29-2007, 05:52 PM

First off, our motives are all ultimately selfish (not in the negative conotation, but as we discussed in another thread, there are benefits for the self that are motivating factors in virtually every decision). Selfless acts are still motivated, in part at least, by self-serving reasoning.

On the other hand, if I were to use all of my time and money on everyone but me, I would not be taking care of myself, which would prevent me from helping others in the future. It is in the interest of helping more people overall that I continue to use my time and money to care for myself as well as others. Like anything else, you need balance.

As for what Mother Teresa said, I think that suffering is a necessary part of life. Sometimes we suffer due to our own choices. Other times we suffer for reasons completely beyond our control. We have two choices when presented with hard times; we can learn from it and move on, keeping our head down and pushing forward, or we can give up and keep repeating our actions.

Jumping from that to what Static said, we have to define what will actually help people vs. what is enabling. I would say giving money to homeless people panhandling or giving a kid whatever they want when they cry are two examples of enabling an individual's negative behavior.

People in general think "help" means to give the person whatever they happen to need at the time. There is no concept of rehabilitating the person. A kid can't stand to be away from their parents. Parents stay with the child 24/7. Instead of helping the child to be independent, they are enabling the child to be completely dependent for the rest of their life. Someone refuses to get their driver's license because they just call friends to cart their ass around, the friends offer to "help" but they are just enabling him to be a leech to other people who have a car, pay for their insurance, pay for their gas, etc.

I'm not saying don't do favors, but I"m talking in terms of behavior patterns. Yeah people need to eat, people need shelter, people need to be medically cared for, but at what point does it stop being help and your just turning them into a completely dependent simpleton who has no ability to care for themselves.

For me personally, this has to do with understanding what "love" is, in terms of love as an all-encompassing caring nature towards people and situations improving.

It doesn't mean warm fuzzies all the time.

Sometimes love is tough, and hard. The wife who has to tell his husband she's concerned about his drinking instead of picking him up another fifth of scotch. The parent who has to ground their child for sneaking out all night with their friends. Love is not giving the other person what they want all the time. And since when do any of us know what we really want anyway?

There needs to be a place for generosity, helping hands, and people whose purpose is to help those in need. However, help cannot come to mean doing whatever a person wants and giving them whatever they ask for.

This is what's happening culturally, most noticably in America. People are expecting their every whim to be provided for them withough giving anything in return. We are gradually becoming completely dependent on another group of people for our very survival.

We need to start raising fishermen(and women) instead of just handing out fish to everyone.

Abrasax · 10-29-2007, 10:51 PM

Yes, I am coming from the idea that our motives are selfish, and I do accept the fact that helping people all the time hurts them. I'm sure though that you cannot say in all sincerity though that you are helping yourself for the main purpose of helping others.

I'm not sure exactly what point I'm trying to make in this thread....maybe I'm just trying to point out flaws in morality and how it tends to overlook certain things.

**Brother of Yeshua** · 10-29-2007, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abrasax

Yes, I am coming from the idea that our motives are selfish, and I do accept the fact that helping people all the time hurts them. I'm sure though that you cannot say in all sincerity though that you are helping yourself for the main purpose of helping others.

I'm not sure exactly what point I'm trying to make in this thread....maybe I'm just trying to point out flaws in morality and how it tends to overlook certain things.

No not the main purpose for me. Never meant to imply that it was. I was objectively arguing that if you were decided that everyone else was more important than you, you would eventually have to come to that conclusion, as you would be a greater help long term than to burn out quickly.

Don't have to try and make a point. It's fun to discuss! And your posts usually bring up some great discussion points from lots of people.

**Opunaya** · 10-30-2007, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abrasax

This started as a reply to the "allowing someone to die" thread, but i figured that it deserved it's own thread.

We only pretend to care about people other than when they directly interfere with our lives. The money we spend on frivolous things- dvd's, clothing, tv's, cable could easily be spent on saving the lives of other people. Any new pair of jeans you buy could allow somebody for a week. Our mentality is "we can't save everybody so we might as well make ourselves happy". But only subconsiously, usually. Yet, if somebody directly interfered with your life, people would view you as a complete asshole if you didn't give up some of your comfort to save them. You would feel like an ass. Why don't you feel like an ass already when the computer you're staring at could save at least a dozen lives?

Anyway, I'm a selfish bastard like everyone else but it makes me sort of sick to see people wearing Nike shoes, or business suits, or who live in a big house, pretending to care about others more than themselves. If somebody really and truly cared about others more than themselves, every dollar they earned would be going towards feeding other people (and maybe enough to keep themselves alive as well, but only so they could continue helping others).

Does anyone else see where I'm coming from?

Umm...in ever culture there's ever been, people have always had to depend on someone else for something...men hunted food, women gathered berries/vegetables or took care of children (and sometimes this was vice-versa), then you have the leader(s), the healers, etc...even in the animal kingdom, there are societies of animals which have certain roles. Of course, this wasn't always perfect, because sometimes they had to allow someone to fall behind when they where moving...survival of the fittest. That thinking still exists for humans today...it's so ingrain in our subconsciousness to provide for ourselves first and others second. This hasn't changed for thousands of years, so do you think humanity as a whole is going to suddenly do a 180 and be like "Oh, we must help EVERYBODY! Forget our own happiness!!" The only time trying to feed and clothe the homeless or whatever comes into major play nowadays is when politicians see a way to make themselves look like an actual human being, or when a company sees a tax write-off or something. Rarely do people help someone else unless they see some profit in it for themselves...and Yeshua pretty much has the rest of what I wanted to say...so there.

Abrasax · 10-30-2007, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opunaya

Umm...in ever culture there's ever been, people have always had to depend on someone else for something...men hunted food, women gathered berries/vegetables or took care of children (and sometimes this was vice-versa), then you have the leader(s), the healers, etc...even in the animal kingdom, there are societies of animals which have certain roles. Of course, this wasn't always perfect, because sometimes they had to allow someone to fall behind when they where moving...survival of the fittest. That thinking still exists for humans today...it's so ingrain in our subconsciousness to provide for ourselves first and others second. This hasn't changed for thousands of years, so do you think humanity as a whole is going to suddenly do a 180 and be like "Oh, we must help EVERYBODY! Forget our own happiness!!" The only time trying to feed and clothe the homeless or whatever comes into major play nowadays is when politicians see a way to make themselves look like an actual human being, or when a company sees a tax write-off or something. Rarely do people help someone else unless they see some profit in it for themselves...and Yeshua pretty much has the rest of what I wanted to say...so there.

Despite this though, society still views itself as moral. It is really baffling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother of Yeshua

No not the main purpose for me. Never meant to imply that it was. I was objectively arguing that if you were decided that everyone else was more important than you, you would eventually have to come to that conclusion, as you would be a greater help long term than to burn out quickly.

Don't have to try and make a point. It's fun to discuss! And your posts usually bring up some great discussion points from lots of people.

I've come to that conclusion as well. For somebody to be truly generous they would provide for themselves enough to survive and to continue helping others (though this would still be selfishly motivated in some form or another). I know very few people like this though yet several who would criticize me for not giving a dollar to a homeless man and then blowing it on soda or something.

Thank you very much for the compliment : ). I enjoy discussions in which you're in as well.