The New and Old Testaments Theolitics Discussion

**Brother of Yeshua** · 08-13-2007, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

No, but everything he stands for (the "historical account" in the old testament) does.

Well, the very theory of evolution refutes divine intervention. Natural selection is exactly that, natural; not supernatural.

There isn't.

To do so would be to discredit the integrity of the Bible as a historical account, which fundamentalist Christians believe it is.

Guesswork or not... I've seen the shadow of the Earth on the moon... and I trust a shadow more than I trust a book that says we're the center of everything.

Jesus only stands for the OT if you assign it that. The Message delivered by Yeshua is bigger than any moldy old book. That point is irrelevant in my worldview.

Why is God supernatural? Why isn't God natural? The fact that evolution can occur at all is an astronomical miracle. The adaptive nature of this reality is astounding, and all of existence vibrates with this life that courses through everything. Think about God in terms of how Einstein talked about the concept God. It's not necessarily about divine intervention, other than the "divine intervention" that occurs constantly in our universe by allowing existence to be. What if it's just such a well designed machine that it works within perfect parameters (as this universe seems to in many regards) and the idea of divine intervention is unnecessary because the laws in place are perfect?

After all this time, you continually confuse my understanding of The Divine in terms of the stale modality of modern Christianity.

I know you won't agree with anything I just said above, that's fine. I don't expect you to really. I just want to clarify that the arguments above is kind of apples to my oranges.

Supernatural and natural are just labels to separate something that is really always the same.

Everything is literally one.

All in all in all....

So as far as natural vs supernatural goes, it's meaningless to me.

Namaste!

**Ristaron** · 08-13-2007, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother of Yeshua

After all this time, you continually confuse my understanding of The Divine in terms of the stale modality of modern Christianity.

Alas, I am afraid that I occasionally do. My apologies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother of Yeshua

Jesus only stands for the OT if you assign it that. The Message delivered by Yeshua is bigger than any moldy old book. That point is irrelevant in my worldview.

I regard the entire Bible as one book. The OT and Qur'an are different. If Jesus (the reason for the NT) doesn't stand for the OT as well, then I believe they would be in fully seperate books.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother of Yeshua

Why is God supernatural? Why isn't God natural? The fact that evolution can occur at all is an astronomical miracle.

Or an astronomical inevitability. How many chances are there for it to occur? There's something called the Law Of Large Numbers, which is basically well represented by the fact that if you roll an unweighted 6-sided dice enough times, you're going to get a 6 at some point. The universe is 78 billion light years across, and we have no idea how many chances life had to begin before it actually did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother of Yeshua

The adaptive nature of this reality is astounding, and all of existence vibrates with this life that courses through everything. Think about God in terms of how Einstein talked about the concept God. It's not necessarily about divine intervention, other than the "divine intervention" that occurs constantly in our universe by allowing existence to be. What if it's just such a well designed machine that it works within perfect parameters (as this universe seems to in many regards) and the idea of divine intervention is unnecessary because the laws in place are perfect?

Needless to say, if the universe hadn't developed the way it did (which we have no evidence to the contrary of the development being fully natural), we wouldn't be having this discussion.
I don't want to generalize, but the thing that really gets to me about spiritualism is that people assume that because something worked, it was meant to happen. Meanwhile things that didn't work out had no business ever trying, but nobody could know so whatever. I realize that it serves as an interesting guideline, but such a theory implies an intelligence that isn't otherwise ratified.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother of Yeshua

I know you won't agree with anything I just said above, that's fine. I don't expect you to really. I just want to clarify that the arguments above is kind of apples to my oranges.

It's not that I don't agree, it's that I can't see any reason to agree.
I know of hundreds of religions that describe things differently and cite other reasons for everything. I find just as much validity in their arguments as I do in the arguments of Yeshua. To me, a neutral ground is the most logical. Science explains things without some intelligent designer, which makes sense to me, because if there was an intelligent designer he would make himself more apparent. If the stars were to spell out "God lives in everyone", then I may adapt a different outlook. But why would I otherwise pick a supreme being to assign as my patron, and then fight tooth and nail for something I don't truly know? It seems like a waste of my time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase_The_Bass

There are hundreds of theories Rist. But like I have said before until there is something resembling a consensus on a idea we have no idea. And I have read all of those links that you have posted before. But I think that what Scientists right now are doing it akin to closing their eyes and throwing darts hoping to hit the bullseye.

We have some idea. Collectively we just don't have consensus. But, then again, neither does the whole world. So by saying that scientists can't explain it, what standard are you holding scientists up to?

**Brother of Yeshua** · 08-13-2007, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

Alas, I am afraid that I occasionally do. My apologies.

No worries. Just a friendly reminder

I regard the entire Bible as one book. The OT and Qur'an are different. If Jesus (the reason for the NT) doesn't stand for the OT as well, then I believe they would be in fully seperate books.

They are in seperate books. The canonizing of scripture didn't occur until 4th century when Rome took over the organized religion of Christianity and made it part of their government. Jesus is only connected to the OT in the sense that he did grow up Jewish, and would have been learning Jewish law, doctrine, and dogma. But Jesus was an apostate and a political radical, one of the reasons he was sought to be killed like so many others who have come before him.

Or an astronomical inevitability. How many chances are there for it to occur? There's something called the Law Of Large Numbers, which is basically well represented by the fact that if you roll an unweighted 6-sided dice enough times, you're going to get a 6 at some point. The universe is 78 billion light years across, and we have no idea how many chances life had to begin before it actually did.

I agree with this. I don't think that negates my view that the laws of reality set into motion are still designed in perfection. The universe has been set up to run independently of anything but itself. But how was it set up like that? Where does math and physics come from? How can the whole earth be expressed in perfectly balanced equations? Again, read my Max Planck quote in the sig. He said it better than I can.

Needless to say, if the universe hadn't developed the way it did (which we have no evidence to the contrary of the development being fully natural), we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Fair enough.

I don't want to generalize, but the thing that really gets to me about spiritualism is that people assume that because something worked, it was meant to happen. Meanwhile things that didn't work out had no business ever trying, but nobody could know so whatever. I realize that it serves as an interesting guideline, but such a theory implies an intelligence that isn't otherwise ratified.

In spirituality, there are two groups of "evidence" of the Divine. Miracles, and signs & wonders. Miracles break the laws of this universe as we understand them (but in many or all cases, don't really break any laws if you understand quantum physics a little bit). Signs and wonders are only noticed by the people who are already looking for them. Evolution is a sign and wonder to me. Think of it like this, everyone thought 9/11 was just carried out by pissed of muslims. As people began to realize that 9/11 is an inside job to some extent, all the same evidence and information started presenting itself in a new light that keeps uncovering more evidence in support of 9/11 being allowed and/or organized in part by the US government. This is the best analogy I have to explain how I see things. I've always believed in evolution, but for years I struggled with it's compatibility with my Christian upbringing. It wasn't until I broke free of that mindset that I could see evolution for what it truly is (imo)

It's not that I don't agree, it's that I can't see any reason to agree.
I know of hundreds of religions that describe things differently and cite other reasons for everything. I find just as much validity in their arguments as I do in the arguments of Yeshua. To me, a neutral ground is the most logical. Science explains things without some intelligent designer, which makes sense to me, because if there was an intelligent designer he would make himself more apparent. If the stars were to spell out "God lives in everyone", then I may adapt a different outlook. But why would I otherwise pick a supreme being to assign as my patron, and then fight tooth and nail for something I don't truly know? It seems like a waste of my time.

I really do understand where you are coming from. I went through this myself between my Christian phase and my current spiritual understanding. And while I agree science explains a great deal, there is a point where science breaks down and cannot explain things. I have experienced "ghosts" for lack of a better term, and I have yet to have anything scientific explain what I have experienced. I'm not saying there can't be a scientific explanation, but I don't have one. The universe is too big for there not to be more than what we see on the surface. The quantum physics unified field blows my mind. We know it's there, but we can't explain it. People are desperately trying to find a theory to make this work. We may someday, but as of now, we've got nothing. I know this sounds like a copout and anything we can't explain is "God" but that's not what I mean. It's really hard to explain it objectively, as so much of my personal experience has contributed to my understanding as it is now. I'll just say that after a seemingly endless string of coincidences, I was left with no choice but to believe what I believe, even though for quite some time, I had no desire to believe it.

**Ristaron** · 08-13-2007, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother of Yeshua

They are in seperate books. The canonizing of scripture didn't occur until 4th century when Rome took over the organized religion of Christianity and made it part of their government. Jesus is only connected to the OT in the sense that he did grow up Jewish, and would have been learning Jewish law, doctrine, and dogma. But Jesus was an apostate and a political radical, one of the reasons he was sought to be killed like so many others who have come before him.

It's true that he was a pariah among his people, but he didn't seek to eliminate the Jewish faith, he sought to revolutionize it. Or, more accurately, revitalize it. After the previous prophets, hundreds of rules were added to the ten commandments. Speaking as the scripture tells the story, Jesus returned not to abolish the old ways, but to fix them.
You have to also realize that the Jews were being very much oppressed by the Romans during that time. They didn't have the necessary sacrifices they needed to make in order to have their sins forgiven. When Jesus supposedly died on the cross, the need for sacrifice was removed because he had fulfilled it for everyone who believes in him.
There was as much an economic use for the new character as there was a social one. And the time was right, because the age had changed (from Aries to Pisces) (the Bible frequently symbolizes the zodiacs... watch Zeitgeist).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother of Yeshua

I really do understand where you are coming from. I went through this myself between my Christian phase and my current spiritual understanding. And while I agree science explains a great deal, there is a point where science breaks down and cannot explain things. I have experienced "ghosts" for lack of a better term, and I have yet to have anything scientific explain what I have experienced. I'm not saying there can't be a scientific explanation, but I don't have one. The universe is too big for there not to be more than what we see on the surface. The quantum physics unified field blows my mind. We know it's there, but we can't explain it. People are desperately trying to find a theory to make this work. We may someday, but as of now, we've got nothing. I know this sounds like a copout and anything we can't explain is "God" but that's not what I mean. It's really hard to explain it objectively, as so much of my personal experience has contributed to my understanding as it is now. I'll just say that after a seemingly endless string of coincidences, I was left with no choice but to believe what I believe, even though for quite some time, I had no desire to believe it.

A coincidence is a scientific anomaly. I've seen people attribute a series of events that have underlying causes in the same thing to be signs, coincidences, whatever you want to call it.
The Ten Plagues, for example, are clear indications of volcanic activity. In the Mediterranean, there was volcanic activity at the time. River of blood is actually only red water because of a "red tide" of dinoflagellates. It's not common in fresh water, but the volcanic activity is a good cause. What happens is that the water becomes toxic to the fish, which then die.
The frogs I don't have a real theory for... but I'm sure there's one out there.
The lice of the third plague came about because of all the dead fish.
As did the flies of the fourth, which were probably stable flies.
The fifth plague is speculated to have been surra, a disease carried by stable flies that affects farm animals but not humans. African Horse Sickness and Bluetongue are two other culprit diseases.
Boils and sores, the famous sixth plague, would have come about from the bites of the flies.
The seventh, eighth, and ninth were a hail storm, a swarm of locusts, and a dust storm respectively. All totally natural.
The tenth was likely a typhoid fever that wiped out more livestock and caused everyone to have to survive off stored grains. Toxic substances produced by the fungi in the grains would have been lethal to the firstborn, who were given preferential access to the food.

The parting of the Red sea is also scientifically explained. The fact is, "red" was mis-spelled, it's supposed to be "reed". The reed sea was more of a marsh, and as witnessed during the tsunami of 2004 immediately preceding a tsunami is a great drain. The Israelites (or most of them) would have managed to get to higher ground before the wave came and devastated the Egyptian army.

The Bible would have simply taken that story and glorified it to say that it was all because of Yahweh, and that none of the Israelites died in the entire process.
Not to mention the fact that there was never any record in Egyptian history that there was any exodus of that scale, leading to the conclusion that there were many exodus'. Particularly given the fact that Moses was a plagiarized version of Misis of Egypt (and Jesus a carbon copy of Horus of Egypt), and the Ten Commandments are taken directly from the Book of the Dead... the Israelites have little to show for their own culture (aside from their one creation story, among millions).

Things like this... lead me to doubt the integrity of the entire thing.

Zen · 08-13-2007, 02:36 PM

Ristaron: "he didn't seek to eliminate the Jewish faith, he sought to revolutionize it. "
"Speaking as the scripture tells the story, Jesus returned not to abolish the old ways, but to fix them."

"Revolutionizing" and "fixing" are nice ways of saying the abolishment of corruption in church and state...
There was no reason to abolish the Jewish faith completely, just the way it was organized...
Just like there is no reason to abolish any faith, just the way that they are organized, manipulated, and misunderstood...
There was reason however, to abolish the systems in place of government, thus bringing about his "death..."

Flash into modern times, and we have the same problems... Massive government corruption spread into religions as means of control...
The metaphors are very clear...
Even if these religious stories never occurred word for word, there is still wisdom to found therein...

Jesus was the great destroyer of ignorance...
And if his message was truly followed, Love, forgiveness, and Peace would be widespread... In the place of fear, money, and government...
This is the true purpose of religion, not how life was created gazillions of years ago, but how to live life Now…

How does science deal with these problems? It's great for deriving mathematical truths of the universe, but it does not touch on the spiritual and religious morals and priorities on the way to live life with clarity and compassion… To "evolve" enough in order to respect "creation"...

**Ristaron** · 08-14-2007, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zen

Ristaron: "he didn't seek to eliminate the Jewish faith, he sought to revolutionize it. "
"Speaking as the scripture tells the story, Jesus returned not to abolish the old ways, but to fix them."

"Revolutionizing" and "fixing" are nice ways of saying the abolishment of corruption in church and state...
There was no reason to abolish the Jewish faith completely, just the way it was organized...
Just like there is no reason to abolish any faith, just the way that they are organized, manipulated, and misunderstood...
There was reason however, to abolish the systems in place of government, thus bringing about his "death..."

Flash into modern times, and we have the same problems... Massive government corruption spread into religions as means of control...
The metaphors are very clear...
Even if these religious stories never occurred word for word, there is still wisdom to found therein...

Jesus was the great destroyer of ignorance...
And if his message was truly followed, Love, forgiveness, and Peace would be widespread... In the place of fear, money, and government...
This is the true purpose of religion, not how life was created gazillions of years ago, but how to live life Now…

How does science deal with these problems? It's great for deriving mathematical truths of the universe, but it does not touch on the spiritual and religious morals and priorities on the way to live life with clarity and compassion… To "evolve" enough in order to respect "creation"...

How does science deal with these problems? It gives them another way to deal with them as opposed to blindly trusting something that doesn't show any proof of existence.
You say there's wisdom in parables, well fucking duh. There's wisdom in my shit if you look hard enough. You get what you want out of religion, that's why people use it for so many different things, and justify kind and heartless actions by it.
I have never seen science tell me to burn a witch, or told me that the way I live my life is wrong. Morals are an entirely human invention, and societies are built on people with similar morals. I'll agree with you so far as to believe that killing someone is not acceptable, but I draw the line at why.
You say because it's a sin (Thou Shalt Not Kill), I say because it's good judgment (I would rather live in a society that doesn't kill each other than one where I can be assaulted for no reason and not have any ability to get the person put behind bars away from me and anybody I care about).

And I don't know where this thread got on to the topic of church and state, but there has always been, and always will be, corruption in the system. The fictional Jesus did split the temple; some people followed the new religion, some didn't. But it doesn't make any difference because now it's still being used for the same purposes. The Evangelical Church has enough people to control elections, and failing that the president can use his "god given right" to crunch the numbers to his favour. I'm sick of hearing that phrase, or any of the pretentious crap that comes with it. Believe what you want, but don't let it affect me.

Also, this thread has switched topics, so I am splitting it into two threads.

**Brother of Yeshua** · 08-14-2007, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

It's true that he was a pariah among his people, but he didn't seek to eliminate the Jewish faith, he sought to revolutionize it. Or, more accurately, revitalize it. After the previous prophets, hundreds of rules were added to the ten commandments. Speaking as the scripture tells the story, Jesus returned not to abolish the old ways, but to fix them.
You have to also realize that the Jews were being very much oppressed by the Romans during that time. They didn't have the necessary sacrifices they needed to make in order to have their sins forgiven. When Jesus supposedly died on the cross, the need for sacrifice was removed because he had fulfilled it for everyone who believes in him.
There was as much an economic use for the new character as there was a social one. And the time was right, because the age had changed (from Aries to Pisces) (the Bible frequently symbolizes the zodiacs... watch Zeitgeist).

A coincidence is a scientific anomaly. I've seen people attribute a series of events that have underlying causes in the same thing to be signs, coincidences, whatever you want to call it.
The Ten Plagues, for example, are clear indications of volcanic activity. In the Mediterranean, there was volcanic activity at the time. River of blood is actually only red water because of a "red tide" of dinoflagellates. It's not common in fresh water, but the volcanic activity is a good cause. What happens is that the water becomes toxic to the fish, which then die.
The frogs I don't have a real theory for... but I'm sure there's one out there.
The lice of the third plague came about because of all the dead fish.
As did the flies of the fourth, which were probably stable flies.
The fifth plague is speculated to have been surra, a disease carried by stable flies that affects farm animals but not humans. African Horse Sickness and Bluetongue are two other culprit diseases.
Boils and sores, the famous sixth plague, would have come about from the bites of the flies.
The seventh, eighth, and ninth were a hail storm, a swarm of locusts, and a dust storm respectively. All totally natural.
The tenth was likely a typhoid fever that wiped out more livestock and caused everyone to have to survive off stored grains. Toxic substances produced by the fungi in the grains would have been lethal to the firstborn, who were given preferential access to the food.

The parting of the Red sea is also scientifically explained. The fact is, "red" was mis-spelled, it's supposed to be "reed". The reed sea was more of a marsh, and as witnessed during the tsunami of 2004 immediately preceding a tsunami is a great drain. The Israelites (or most of them) would have managed to get to higher ground before the wave came and devastated the Egyptian army.

The Bible would have simply taken that story and glorified it to say that it was all because of Yahweh, and that none of the Israelites died in the entire process.
Not to mention the fact that there was never any record in Egyptian history that there was any exodus of that scale, leading to the conclusion that there were many exodus'. Particularly given the fact that Moses was a plagiarized version of Misis of Egypt (and Jesus a carbon copy of Horus of Egypt), and the Ten Commandments are taken directly from the Book of the Dead... the Israelites have little to show for their own culture (aside from their one creation story, among millions).

Things like this... lead me to doubt the integrity of the entire thing.

Coincidences being scientific anomolies holds up until you introduce the dimension of time. Every nanosecond could drastically alter the outcome of any given event. Then look at quantum physics, and the Planck Constant, where time becomes even slower than we actually experience it. Time was not always in existence, and nor shall it always be. What is left when time ends? Answer that, and you can start to understand my conception of God.

Ignore the stories and look to the deeper Truths is all I can really say in regards to scripture of any variety. Stories have some truth and some fiction mixed in. All stories. There is no reason not to take the wisdom from all though to raise up something larger than the parts. These arguments are fine if you're talking to a hardline fundamentalist Christian, but you aren't. I find Truth in the OT and NT absolutely, but I also find Truth in many other things. This one source seems to be a major point of contention, and while I agree with many of your complaints, you allow those who usurped the wisdom of the ages to taint your view against all things related to the moder cavalcade called Christianity. In the same way that Martin Luther eliminated many things out of spite (you know what would really piss the Catholics off? Let's pull some books out of the OT and NT. Those jackasses won't know what hit 'em!) many atheists want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I don't believe in the gods of Hinduism, but their wisdom and morality lessons are wonderful! Even Greek mythology teaches much of how to live a good and wholesome life.

Jesus sought to revolutionize, and the vultures pulled us right back into the same system. Jesus never established Christianity. Yeshua merely delivered a Message to how we could all be Children of the Universe, of God itself. Yet he was deified, and his glory was usurped, and muddied by men who craved power over other men. Years later we're so far from the Truth, none will ever know. And yet it is all around us if we learn to sift out lies. We all can do it. We all have the capability, but we've forgotten how to use it. We've been brainwashed into forgetting that Life itself is our greatest Teacher. Science and religion have been divorced, and in turn we have people like us who agree on multitudes of ideologies, but set diametrically opposed by the divorce of ideas once tightly woven together. I don't say this to insult your views, but merely to make a point of how stubborn we all can be.

If it weren't for Christianity, everyone would think Jesus was kickass and the world would be kickass and things wouldn't suck. Regardless of your views on Jesus as fact or fiction to any degree, the Message is so inspiring I don't see how it matters much. It's a message of respect and family committment. Helping others and making the world a better place. Who wouldn't want to be a part of that?

It's the Message, not the charade you see promoted across America.

My God cannot be contained by any mere words.....

But one....

Love.

**Ristaron** · 08-14-2007, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother of Yeshua

Coincidences being scientific anomolies holds up until you introduce the dimension of time. Every nanosecond could drastically alter the outcome of any given event. Then look at quantum physics, and the Planck Constant, where time becomes even slower than we actually experience it. Time was not always in existence, and nor shall it always be. What is left when time ends? Answer that, and you can start to understand my conception of God.

Ignore the stories and look to the deeper Truths is all I can really say in regards to scripture of any variety. Stories have some truth and some fiction mixed in. All stories. There is no reason not to take the wisdom from all though to raise up something larger than the parts. These arguments are fine if you're talking to a hardline fundamentalist Christian, but you aren't. I find Truth in the OT and NT absolutely, but I also find Truth in many other things. This one source seems to be a major point of contention, and while I agree with many of your complaints, you allow those who usurped the wisdom of the ages to taint your view against all things related to the moder cavalcade called Christianity. In the same way that Martin Luther eliminated many things out of spite (you know what would really piss the Catholics off? Let's pull some books out of the OT and NT. Those jackasses won't know what hit 'em!) many atheists want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I don't believe in the gods of Hinduism, but their wisdom and morality lessons are wonderful! Even Greek mythology teaches much of how to live a good and wholesome life.

Jesus sought to revolutionize, and the vultures pulled us right back into the same system. Jesus never established Christianity. Yeshua merely delivered a Message to how we could all be Children of the Universe, of God itself. Yet he was deified, and his glory was usurped, and muddied by men who craved power over other men. Years later we're so far from the Truth, none will ever know. And yet it is all around us if we learn to sift out lies. We all can do it. We all have the capability, but we've forgotten how to use it. We've been brainwashed into forgetting that Life itself is our greatest Teacher. Science and religion have been divorced, and in turn we have people like us who agree on multitudes of ideologies, but set diametrically opposed by the divorce of ideas once tightly woven together. I don't say this to insult your views, but merely to make a point of how stubborn we all can be.

If it weren't for Christianity, everyone would think Jesus was kickass and the world would be kickass and things wouldn't suck. Regardless of your views on Jesus as fact or fiction to any degree, the Message is so inspiring I don't see how it matters much. It's a message of respect and family committment. Helping others and making the world a better place. Who wouldn't want to be a part of that?

It's the Message, not the charade you see promoted across America.

My God cannot be contained by any mere words.....

But one....

Love.

Well, the only problem I have with this as a whole (I won't go into detail because, quite frankly, I don't care) is that Jesus' life as described in the Bible is just a carbon copy of Horus from Egypt, Mithra from Persia, Dionysus from Greece... and countless others. It's just tailored a little differently for a new group of people. If I am to put any faith in the divine, it will be the original author, not the plagiarizer.

**Brother of Yeshua** · 08-14-2007, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

Well, the only problem I have with this as a whole (I won't go into detail because, quite frankly, I don't care) is that Jesus' life as described in the Bible is just a carbon copy of Horus from Egypt, Mithra from Persia, Dionysus from Greece... and countless others. It's just tailored a little differently for a new group of people. If I am to put any faith in the divine, it will be the original author, not the plagiarizer.

I agree, but we are now slowly getting chunks of other historical accounts of Jesus (mysteriously being held by the Vatican, you know, the people who are descended from those that basically invented modern Christian theology) which are showing some consistency in that this man named Jesus was around and he said some cool shit and he had a solid message of revolution for the people (both spiritually and politically, but the former begets the latter I would say).

I'm gonna lay it out. All the peculiar links between Horus and Jesus are probably the facts to be suspect of. Strip all that away and what do you have? A dude who wanted to make a better world. I believe he was a Messenger, but to say he is the only one or to deify him is the great lie that allows no one to "enter the temple" (as Jesus said to the Pharisees, who were withholding the keys of knowledge, whatever that means....but it would seem they are keeping some sort of information secret from the people....surprise

). I view Jesus as the Christ in the literal terms of the word, the Anointed One. When we "receive Christ" we receive our anointing, whatever and however that may be. It is more than the facade of saying "I love Jesus" when you don't even truly know who or what Jesus truly stood for. It is about understanding the call. Understanding what it means to take on a role of leadership, responsibility, and be a role model to the masses. There is no one simple path to this.

We are each called to our own devices where we are. But as Yeshua himself said, we should look at the fruits. What are people producing? I feel that you and I have pretty similar lines of good and evil Ristaron, so when you or I look at what is being produced by something, with our moral compass (which is always relative, but there is still a "north" and "south" if you catch me) we can see where the individual stands. I've met people of all backgrounds from all walks of life, and there are some good ones, and there are some real shitheads.

Jesus message is bigger than religion. It is freedom FROM religion! By following the simple Law of Love, there is no need for relgion, for this Law achieves all the results that religion never will. Because it is simple. It is so simple that it almost seems too simple to be true. Perhaps you may feel that way, and I respect that. However, such a simple rule is such a difficult undertaking for any human.

Jesus accepted this to death. Whether or not the death account as canonically recorded is accurate, It does seem that at some point, Jesus was killed. Beyond that is difficult to say. Jesus is the quintessential human being of our age. It is this burden of Love that was taken on which exhonorates Yeshua to this lofty place. I do not claim perfection upon him, but I do claim him as an icon by which I measure my living. Will I surpass this? I cannot say, but I can say that Yeshua himself said that others would come after him, doing greater things (not sure how you can be any greater than God's Son, but don't worry, the fundies can just ignore that verse).

Going back to Zeitgeist, all the astrological stuff proved to me is that our universe is a ticking clock. Major events and catalysms are connected to it's ticking. It would also seem this clock is winding down. Millions of prophecies are beginning to blend together and all seem to fall into place with one another. It also verified my suspicions of deification being bestowed upon Yeshua, and never claimed by him (plenty actually claims the total opposite).

There is something deeper than what any of us can see in this world. A Reality so deep, none can even fathom. We may get glimpses into a window of this insanity (i.e. quantum physics) but we lack the real capacity to understand all the information we are encountering.

What will be, will be. My choice is only what to do with the piece of time and space I am given.

That is the only choice any of us truly have.

This is where free will lies.

This is where we find salvation.

This is where we can experience what has been called "The Christ" (the anointing).

All else is chaos around us.

I feel like I may have gone completely scatter-brained in this post.

Ah well. I hope it was at least edifying.

**Ristaron** · 08-15-2007, 01:26 AM

It certainly did your beliefs more justice than any single other post has.
I assume that you use the different pseudonyms to differentiate between the Biblical Jesus and the figure who represents all his good intentions (Yeshua).

I still don't see a need for such a figure. If religion was removed from the equation, we would still have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things; but we wouldn't have good people doing bad things.

I believe the truth you have found can only be found from within.