Do dead babies and severely retarded people go to hell?

NachtEngel · 03-02-2008, 10:58 PM

I just wanted to know what people think of this from a Christian perspective. I have heard that babies are born with their parents sins and that is why they are often baptized at a young age. Since a baby can't be "sorry" for it's sins or ask for forgiveness would it automatically go to hell?

My next question is about severely retarded people. If someone is mentally disabled to the point of not even being able to understand religion would they go to hell? Since we would be judged because of our human life and have free will does that mean retarded people are also disables in spirit or just in body? The reason I ask about being disabled in spirit is I am curious to know if people think a persons consciousness could be naturally disabled in some way?

**Nøz** · 03-02-2008, 11:06 PM

The soul is said to be perfect so if you are retarded or have any type of handy cap it would be lost when you die. Also the babies that die are said to be innocent so I dont think they would go to a "hell".

NachtEngel · 03-02-2008, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noz

The soul is said to be perfect so if you are retarded or have any type of handy cap it would be lost when you die. Also the babies that die are said to be innocent so I dont think they would go to a "hell".

Really?

I had heard before that they are considered to be born unclean because of their parents sins. I don't think everyone looks at it like this but it's not completely uncommon to hear. A good example of this would be one of the exorcism videos that were posted on here before. If you remember the guy was told to "apologize for the sins of his ancestors and Hitler because hes German". I didn't really understand that though because if you believe that we all started from two people then everyone is related. With that logic we should all be apologizing for Hitler since we are related to him.

Does anyone know if it says something in the Bible about being born unclean or carrying on the sins of your parents at birth? I don't remember reading that but I am curious to know where the idea comes from.

El Pirata · 03-02-2008, 11:21 PM

catholics are the only ones that baptize their babies, protestants typically baptize once they are more conscious of their what they have done in life, somewhere around 13 and up is when protestants are allowed to be baptized. As for souls, I believe it is taught that everyone is born innocent, and as for mentally handicapped people I would consider them in the same category as children and babies, innocent.

NachtEngel · 03-02-2008, 11:31 PM

Alright, I looked it up on my own. Here are some reasons people say we are born sinners.

Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Ephesians 2:3 - Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Matthew 7:17 - Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

It is also said that we are born into sin because of the original sin of Adam and eve.

El Pirata · 03-02-2008, 11:36 PM

I believe the Bible also mentions of of men whose descendants have also been cursed, but I think that only relates to the old testament. As for those verses, I wouldnt know what to say, I guess I have to look them up, but they dont sound too direct. Also keep in mind, that my views of the Bible and God are different from others, and that I am no expert on the Bible.

NachtEngel · 03-02-2008, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Pirata

I believe the Bible also mentions of of men whose descendants have also been cursed, but I think that only relates to the old testament. As for those verses, I wouldnt know what to say, I guess I have to look them up, but they dont sound too direct. Also keep in mind, that my views of the Bible and God are different from others, and that I am no expert on the Bible.

Romans 5:12-19
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16A nd not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

**Brother of Yeshua** · 03-03-2008, 10:19 AM

This comes down to are you a "Christian" that follows the core message of the New Testament or are you a fundamentalist Christian that thinks every word in the Bible is unquestionable truth?

And even in those two broader scopes there is debate.

I understand your frustration with Christianity Nacht, but you seem so married to disprove the letter of Christianity that you miss those who follow the spirit of it, and while I have my problems with their dogma and theology, the core tenets of the Message in the NT is solid imo.

Are muslims not muslim because they don't blow up the "infidels"? Like I said I understand your argument, but why not the vitriol for other religions that do not follow their holy writings verbatim?

Line up 100 christians and you will get 100 different theologies. They may have similar points, but none will match identically. People are too individualistic to agree 100% on just about anything as big as religion, philosophy, theology, or politics.

As far as the OP, Catholics believe unbaptized babies who die go to purgatory. I believe the Vatican issued a statement saying retarded people do not go to hell, but I could be wrong.

As far as other sects of Christianity, I was raised in the United Methodist church, and they baptize infants, as well as Presbyterians, Lutherans, Baptists (duh), and others. Non-denominational churches (which are a sort of denomination in themselves, but that's a different discussion) are about the only churches I know that refuse to baptize infants. I'm sure there may be others, but I have not encountered any. EDIT: i think Assembly of God churches do not encourage infant baptism. But I may just be assuming that because they anoint each other with oil and roll around talking in "tongues." The two practices just seem to go together in my mind.

Most Christians I know (even the fundies) argue that God only expects us to understand to our own accord (which I basically agree with, but they wouldn't agree with me) so infants and the mentally challenged would only be judged by their own capacity.

This argument is all about interpretation and personal value placed on the Christian bible.

NachtEngel · 03-03-2008, 10:41 AM

To tell you the truth this specific topic was not supposed to be an attack in any way. I was genuinely curious to hear different points of view on this. My more recent topics that are aimed at Christianity though have a great deal to do with living at home now. If I was living with an Islamic family I probably would have had more topics based on that. That could go for most any religion if I was constantly around it. Even my own beliefs have a darker history. Most of my beliefs come from some types of paganism. Even though most don't talk about it you could find certain pagans in history that took part in human sacrifices. I am aware of that but obviously no sane person goes around sacrificing humans to deities. I guess it just gets frustrating to feel looked down upon over religion by certain family members. Anyway, this was not about me so back on topic.

I understand that different sects of Christianity have different ways of looking at things. I think I have most commonly heard the babies and retarded people go to hell thing from baptist. To be more clear though I am not saying they all think that. I'm also not claiming that it's evil or something if someone does believe that. I just wouldn't be able to live with myself believing in something so dark. I view religion as something personal that is supposed to help you as a person. I do not see how condemning retarded people or babies would benefit a persons view of existence. In my opinion it makes it seem like they are less important. They are not even given a chance for people that believe this. If someone thinks retarded people are not good enough to go to heaven the would they believe that those people are not important? Those are the type of things that disturb me.

One of the main reasons I continue to go on about Christianity is because I probably know more about it than any other religion. I don't know much about Islam. I made a few topics on paganism in the past but I normally don't bother because I feel like I am pushing my own beliefs. The fact is I am one of the only people on here that have any pagan beliefs so it wouldn't serve much of a point to post a lot of topics on the subject.

**Ristaron** · 03-03-2008, 10:47 AM

According to the Lutheran denomination I was raised in, everyone is born with Original Sin thanks to that bitch Eve. Until a baby is baptized, it carries that burden. So if it dies before it gets baptized, it goes to hell. In the words of the wife of the pastor of the church I was forced to attend for most of my life, "babies are evil".

The Lutheran belief system also states that you must accept Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour in order to gain access to Heaven. So severely retarded people who can't do that also go to Hell.

You can probably see why I thought it was all bullshit...