The Bible

NachtEngel · 03-04-2008, 11:45 AM

For those of you that do believe in the Christian God or even those that might want to speak hypothetically do you think the bible is what God wanted it to be? I got this idea mostly from the topic about the dead sea scrolls. There is still so much that is and could be missing. It was all written so long ago.

If I did believe in it I would like to think that its meaning has just been corrupted by man over time. It was even written by men and they could have put things that they wanted to say in it. How can someone really say it divinely inspired. How exactly can a person decide if something like that is truly divinely inspired or not? Some parts are left out if they aren't considered divinely inspired but what makes them any more or less valid than whats in there? They were all written by the hand of man. Since man can make mistakes why should any the books should be considered more or less valid than another?

Josh1579 · 03-04-2008, 04:17 PM

I believe that the Bible states its case that it doesn't need to be proven by human means. Christianity is based on the Bible. The Bible eludes to the idea of faith. If you can prove something...you don't need to have faith in it. So, the Bible doesn't need to be "proven" as much as it requires one to have faith. Also, I believe that God has worked throughout history to keep His Word pure and faultless or else He wouldn't call it pure and faultless. Yes, things are added and taken away in different translations, but I believe that God can use anything to bring others to Him. Also, the Bible is the book that we have the most, accurate manuscripts (based on close relation to authors) than we have of any other ancient book.

NachtEngel · 03-05-2008, 01:38 AM

A few things I want to point out are God did not make the Bible "pure and faultless". The Bible was written by man and is made how man made it. God didn't write the bible and hand it to people on a silver plater. How exactly do you decide how "accurate" something like that is. I also wasn't talking about the little differences in translation. I was talking about entire books that are left out. How are those books any more or less valid? They were all created by the hand of man.

03-30-2008, 12:27 PM

i agree with you Josh, i believe that the God has kept the Bible pure and faultless.
and i also agree with you Engel, there were a few books left out of the Bible...but here is where u are wrong...those so called "books" were written over a 1000 years after the Bible was completed in 100 AD. i can see where u are coming from though with it being done the way man wanted it to be done, because before Martin Luther started the Protestant Reformation in 1517, the Bible was only in Latin, which only the Catholic priests could read at the time. Because of this, the church congregations could only hear the Bible from one man's interpretation. That is exactly y Luther nailed the 95 Thesis to the Gutenberg church door, saying that every man should be able to read the Bible for himself so that he could experience the Bible in his own way.
Does this help?

Alyse Christine

**Ristaron** · 03-30-2008, 01:09 PM

Where are your sources for the dates of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Here's mine saying that they were written around the same time as the rest of the Bible:

UA Physics Department - New Radiocarbon Age Dates for Dead Sea Scrolls Agree With Paleographic Dates

So, once again, it comes back to the "humankind decides what God says" point.

**Brother of Yeshua** · 03-30-2008, 09:49 PM

The Dead Sea Scrolls are a bit older than any other hebrew manuscript. In fact sections of the dead sea scrolls were held secret and hidden by the Vatican for many years. Hmmmm why would they want to do that? There are many scriptures that are still not released to the public, and there is a gospel written in Aramaic (the language Yeshua and his followers would have spoke at the time) that the Catholic Church translated still will not release to this day (unless my understanding on the matter is wrong).

Anyway, the Dead Sea Scrolls do provide SOME consistency for certain chunks of the OT and NT. However, because some chunks are proven accurate should not prove everything inbetween! Half-truths are the most believable kind of lies.

As far as biblical corruption goes, go do some homework on how the Bible was canonized, and also, do some research into the models of the pagan religions at the time when Christianity was adopted by Rome as the official religion of the government. Do some research of where modern Christian doctrine comes from. Things like "original sin" and dogma against reincarnation do not enter the scene until Rome takes over. The Jewish tradition never held a concept of original sin when discussing Adam and Eve. In fact, they didn't interpret it LITERALLY AT ALL! *Gasp!* So we are to assume all of a sudden people who came along centuries later would have a better understanding of scriptures from a different time, culture and language? And Jewish tradition holds in a concept of reincarnation called the "transmigration of souls."

Get an RSV or NRSV Bible. A good one, with footnotes and a concordance and stuff. Look up Luke 3:22 and there should be a footnote saying, instead of "in him I am well pleased" which reads "today I have begotten thee."

At first glance this may seem inconsequential, a mere difference in translation, but seriously stop and think about that means.

If Yeshua/Joshua (or Jesus as the Greeks bastardized the name to) was begotten as the Son of God on that day, then who was he before that point? At what point did Yeshua become the Christ/Messiah (which means THE ANOINTED ONE it is not his last name and it does not mean "savior" or "redeemer" or anything else anyone tells you) creates a huge gap in the theology of the modern Christian church.

Ask yourself why the trinity is not mentioned as a concept, save for once, in the entire thing, yet it "coincidentally" matches with every other pagan religious model that came before Christianity in the western world. There are always Three main deity figures, and often the are a masculine quality (God the Father) a Feminine Quality (Holy Spirit) and an offspring (Jesus). This is even true for older religious models outside of western tradition, dating back all the way to Egyptian mythology.

Also, have any Christians here actually read any scholastic research on the outlook of biblical corruption? Go do some homework. Even Christian Biblical Scholars accept that Moses parted the REED SEA not the RED SEA, but strangely it continues to be misprinted in Bibles across the country.

Why does the Christian community in general rail so violently against homosexuality, when YESHUA SAID NOTHING ON THE MATTER THAT IS ON RECORD (even non-canonical stuff) and it is found only in the OT, yet no one is bothered that we are not stoning children who misbehave to death (it's in there) or going a mile or so outside the city to take a dump (also in there).

Ask yourself if modern Western Christianity as an institution (which was an EASTERN religion to start with based off another EASTERN religion) really purports the values that should be instilled by the Message of Yeshua. "Just say you love Jesus and God will do the rest." That's a great model for the values of personal responsibility and self-control that he spoke of.

IMO, modern Christian theology is the furthest thing from what Yeshua intended in his words. Biblical infallibility is a straw man argument used to indoctrinate.

I'm not looking to fight about these things, so please don't lecture me on "faith" or this or that or the other. I've been down the path your on, so don't feel you have to take the time and effort to explain yourself. I mostly wanted to make the Christians around aware of some this information to go challenge your faith and do some research from multiple viewpoints.

Question for you Josh, were you aware that most of the NT books were written at least 40 years after Jesus was purportedly crucified and ressurected? I can't say I'd trust words written down that much later especially when the culture was highly one of oral tradition (apart from the TaNaK).

I do however, Josh, agree with you that God can use ANYTHING to draw people closer. However, I boldly ask you, do you believe God can use abortion? Homosexuality? Atheism? Paganism? Witchcraft? If you truly believe what you said, then the answer must be an emphatic and resounding "YES!"

Yet what does modern Christianity do? Shun. Blame. Judge. Condemn. Christian leaders go on tv blaming 9/11 on homosexuals and feminists. Watch the movie "Jesus Camp." It's on youtube in 9 parts. I won't clutter the thread posting it here.

That last bit is offtopic, so Josh, please feel free to PM me if you want to discuss that in depth at all.

Lastly, I don't mean anything I just wrote to be offensive, bashing, or whatever. I'm just sharing my viewpoint on the Bible and how from my perspective it has been misused and abused over the years by people.

Religion was corrupted in england when the church was the government, why would it have happened any differently in Rome? Look at other theocratic states throughout history. It's not a very successful track record. Even states that remain theocratic over long periods of time are neither stable nor scrupulous.

I personally find it extremely difficult to believe something as massive as God (that which literally is all in all in all in all in all etc....) can be contained in one very small cross section of writings.

Truth is found everywhere, hidden amongst the lies.

I'm sorry for this whole rant *puts soapbox away*

Keena · 03-31-2008, 10:12 AM

I totally agree with BoY on this one.

also Josh, what proof do you have that the Christian Bible is the most accurate ancient manuscripts that we have?

One example, the Muslim Quran. It was written by the followers of Mohammed several years after his death (kind of like the NT) However, there is a built in authentication system in the Quran that relates how reliable different passages are, i.e. they keep track of where passages came from, who was the person, and how did they hear the story? kind of like how we keep track of who is in charge of evidence in a criminal investigation at any point in time. Also, the Quran is never truly translated out of arabic, if it is translated then they generally call it an 'interpretation' of the Quran, unlike in Christianity where any translation is believed to be just as true as the 'original'.

That is just one example of how an ancient manuscript other than the Christian Bible can be seen as being more accurate.

**Brother of Yeshua** · 04-02-2008, 11:07 PM

Sheesh come on guys. I know there are Christians out there so at least respond to something I said.

You may not change my mind, but I'd at least like to understand your thoughts on things.

El Pirata · 04-03-2008, 12:15 AM

I believe the Bible is to some extent what God wanted it to be. On other areas though, I think he had to show men a different way to view things. So he gave them metaphoric visions of things that would be easier to explain, rather than some complicated rather drawn out explanation. That is how I explain the book of revelations and the genesis.