-Upholding the United States Constitution

or

-Disregarding the United States Constitution and not worrying about impeachment proceedings because the election is so close and it would 'rip the country appart' (as if it isn't already...)

Seriously, this is what is has come to.

I sent a letter to senators Boxer and Feinstein, both D. CA, asking essentially why the hell the president and his entire fucking cabinet havn't been impeached yet, and both responses lingered on the lines of 'it's too close to election time, it would devide the country in a time when we all need to band together, I think they even mentioned it would weaken the democratic runner in the election against McCain! (which I think the opposite, I think it would show the democrats have balls who don't get pushed around)

In light Scott McClellen's book that was just published, I really think there's a strong case for impeachment, and with every passing day more evidence to impeach this administration is found. McClellen says the president lied about going to war; it was not just a case of "bad intelligence," but intentional deception. This is an impeachable crime.

So it seems to me this is the situation;

-The president (and his staff) have committed impeachable crimes (this is fact)
-The next presidential election is almost 6 months away and our representatives in congress (with the exception of Wexler and the judiciary committee) and the senate refuse to hold impeachment proceedings because it would (allegedly) devide the country and weaken the democratic frontrunner

So what does an American citizen do when the leaders of this country don't follow the rules?

...this is the type of stuff that breeds fanatical responses in the public sector. Does anyone else have a feeling of complete helplessness, like nobody will listen to you, and the ones that will won't do anything?

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This is a follow-up on the last post, this time with video.



@ RW, I would really like to hear your opinion about this when you have a chance.

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"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail"
-Harold R. McAlindon

"How we raise our children is the most critical thing we do in our lifetime. The future is in thier hands and they will shape tomorrow based on what they learn from us today."
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rightwinger

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Ok. I only read your original post though Static.

List them.


The reason impeachment proceedings aren't under way? There's no high crime or misdemeanor.

Being unpopular is not a crime.

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Dr.'s examined 9 Gitmo detainees and discovered clear evidence of physical/mental and sexual torture. That's the war crime as torture is illegal under the US Constitution and international law. The order to infact torture these prisoners came from top white house officials. I don't think they have pinpointed exactly which ones, but that is only because no investigation into the matter has started (yet).

(this is just one of the war crimes Bush has committed. Another would be spying on Americans without a warrant, another would be lying about the intelligence to the American people to get us into Iraq. All documented, all war crimes, all impeachable offenses, all death sentences. This my friend, is the very definition of treason against this country.)

__________________
"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail"
-Harold R. McAlindon

"How we raise our children is the most critical thing we do in our lifetime. The future is in thier hands and they will shape tomorrow based on what they learn from us today."
-John Doe Smith

"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned."

rightwinger

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They examined 11. 7 being from Abu-Ghraib. 4 from Gitmo.

At Abu-Ghraib? No.

That's not a war crime. I don't think that was a crime either. I'm pretty sure that the law states that the AG can bypass the FISA courts.

Not exactly sure of the legality issues. Pretty sure that it's legal.

Lying? how so?

No. Even if a lot of those were crimes....which they aren't, they certainly wouldn't be "war crimes"....and there wouldn't be death sentences.

If they can show that there is torture happening at Gitmo, ordered by the president...that may be something. The rest. No.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

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Ok, howbout the 'they discovered CLEAR evidence of torture" part?

Will you acknowlege that the US has, did, and most likely does torture people abroad?

Again, we are not talking about where the order wasn't applicable, in this case I was talking about the Gitmo detainees. If you think that is legal, you are an idiot. Torture has been illegal for quite a few years, it would take an order from the white house to reinstate it, that is the only way a soldier in the field would be asked/told/ordered to torture a person held in an American prison cell abroad. That is what is documented, that these orders did not come from just some random colonel or general in the field somewhere under high amounts of stress with a grudge against 'arabs'.

Now, will you acknowlege that the order to torture people in American prisons abroad came from the white house?

You're right, illegal wiretaps aren't war crimes, but you are definitely wrong in them being not illegal, hell the word is in the name, i l l e g a l wiretaps... I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that means they are illegal... Show me the law that says the AG can bypass the FISA courts, I would also like an example of when this would be used to protect American citizens, you know, spy on them without anyone else knowing about it, yeah, how would that help protect American lives?

This is highly illegal, there's actually a bill in the house TODAY about giving the telecom companies immunity from prosecution (which is utter fucking bullshit) for spying illegally on American citizens, after a few dozen of them sued the telecom companies they [the TC's] went crying to daddy Bush to get a law passed so they couldn't do prison terms, and guess what, I bet it passes.

October 1st, 2002 Bush recieved intel from the CIA stating Sadaam IS CLEARLY NOT an immediate threat to the US. October 7th, 2002 (on my birthday) Bush addresses the nation and says "Iraq is a direct threat to the peace in the middle east and to the US" "an attack from Iraq is IMMINENT". So there are only a few conclusions one can come up with from this information, a. Bush never read the CIA's report and went with what he thought was best at the time (essentially not lying, but not acting as a president should either, if this is the case, he should be held accountable none the less) b. he read it, just disregarded it and still went with what he thought was best at the time (illegal) or c. he read it and tried to manipulate it so that the American public stirred more towards war with Iraq (illegal). There is no way he did not read it, so option a. is out. That leaves us with two options both of which Bush gets quite a lengthy prison sentence... So which is it?

Well they are definitely on their way to proving torture does take place at Gitmo. How is conducting illegal wiretaps, lying about important information when it has such huge consequences, and torturing prisoners held in American custody, not illegal? What world do you live in RW? I hate to break it to you but we do not live in an anarchy society, and no matter how much you love the guy, even the president of the United States is subject to each and every law that you and I are, and MUST be held accountable like the rest of us would be.

trea-son -

1. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.

2. a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state.

3. the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.

Check, check, check... I know what I'm talking about. Learn the laws.

__________________
"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail"
-Harold R. McAlindon

"How we raise our children is the most critical thing we do in our lifetime. The future is in thier hands and they will shape tomorrow based on what they learn from us today."
-John Doe Smith

"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned."

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Did you read how they tested them? They did a psychological examination, and an interview. That's what they based most of their findings on.

And. Since a majority of them were from Abu-Ghraib......we know what happened at Abu-Ghraib.

At Abu-Ghraib we know what happened, but overall no. I wouldn't acknowledge that at.

I never said torture was legal.
Your pattern is to state what you believe, and then pass it off as fact.

No. I will not acknowledge that the order came from the White House, because I don't even know if there was an order, and I don't even know if torture takes place.
You calling them illegal, doesn't make them illegal.

The term you are looking for is "warrant-less" wire taps. Because they didn't go to a FISA court, but to my knowledge it is legal for the AG to bypass the FISA court.

Harvard Political Review - Bush's Wiretapping: Legal and Necessary

I had the actual law up, when I made the comment. But, I couldn't find the link again. I'll try and find the specific law, that one person based their argument on.


That's not the issue.

Can you link me to the story on that piece of intel.

1) There aren't 2 options.

2) That would not get Bush a lengthy prison sentence. Your assumptions are not facts.

I'd propose option d) Bush went with the larger, more likely intelligence information that said that Hussein had WMDs. Numerous different countries intelligence agencies believed this, as did Hussein's generals.

Illegal wiretaps would be illegal. But, the "warrantless" wiretaps seem to have a legal basis.

Torturing prisoners would be illegal.

Lying about information, actually isn't illegal, unless you are under oath. And I don't think one could make a strong case for Bush lying.

???

You didn't post the legal definition of treason. You posted the dictionary definition of treason. Again. You don't know what you are talking about.

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

RATSOADM

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Bush Seeks Immunity for Violating War Crimes Act

Bush confesses to war crimes
Kucinich Offers Impeachment Articles Against Bush, By John Bresnahan - CBS News



Bush and his cronies do the things they do specifically for people like RW. All Bush needs to do is steal a car and then write a law that says "presidents will not be held accountable for stealing cars" and then RW will say "he didnt break the law!"... of course maybe he is right, but he is missing something... I wont mention what that something is. The same goes with spying, torture, the patriot act, the military commissions act, the lies that led to the war, the deception that led to the war. (yes you can deceive even without lying! You just pick and choose your facts and selectively leave things out)... I cant believe you even say you dont know if torture is taking place... OHHHH yeah.. The Bush administration re-named the torture to pressure... so yeah they apply pressure they dont torture... and pressure is not an illegal word yet! so clearly he is within the law when he supports it... Even with the photos coming out of Gitmo, the people who have been repremanded over the mistreatment who claim it was their orders... even the examples of waterboarding.. and he cant admit there is torture... this guy would be the perfect employee of the bush administration.

Also when Bush lies all he has to say is "I was misinformed" an people like RW will say.. "oh ok I understand.. good job Bushy boy, you are a good man.. I feel sorry for you... poor little Bush was misled... Oh well lets continue to make the mistake now!"

I really dont think its worth arguing with some idiot that the world is round and not flat... and I feel the same about arguing with someone who thinks Bush was honest and committed no crimes in his administration.

Waste of time, you cant teach the blind to see

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I'd really like to know how the examiners discovered clear signs of electricity being used, scars, sexual abuse and sodomy, by simply giving them a psyc exam and an imterview.

Torture, Cover-Up At Gitmo? , Former Translator Says Prisoner Interrogations Were Staged For VIPs - CBS News

Report: Exams prove abuse, torture in Iraq, Gitmo - Yahoo! News

The Raw Story | Amnesty International releases accounts of Gitmo abuse, torture

Lawyer: U.S. Destroyed Gitmo Torture Notes, Charges Arise In Case Against Canadian Man Detained When He Was 15 - CBS News

So are you denying that prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay were/are tortured?

Refer to the previous quote, we know it happened/happens at Gitmo, now will you acknowlege it?

Right, you just said that torture is illegal, and that the US did it in Abu-Ghraib, but that they didn't commit any crimes? And that they don't do it at Guantanamo Bay? State what you mean about how the evidence has surfaced about Americans torturing prisoners held abroad in prisons, and how that is not illegal, please?

It's not what I believe then pass it off as fact, there is CLEAR evidence of torture going on at these prisons, not only at Gitmo or Abu-Ghraib, but other prisons as well, these cases just aren't as documented as the other two. What more would it take for you to accept that the United States tortures prisoners? Canada has put the United States on the list of countries that torture people...

BBC NEWS | Americas | Canada puts US on 'torture list'

CTV.ca | Canada puts U.S. on torture watch list: CTV

Canada Puts US On Torture Watch List - Politics on The Huffington Post

U.S.: Did President Bush Order Torture? (Human Rights Watch, 21-12-2004)
President Authorized Abu Ghraib Torture, FBI Email Says - The NewStandard

RW, if warrantless wiretaps were legal, why would you need a warrant for a wiretap in the first place?

BBC NEWS | Americas | US judge rules wiretaps illegal

"Plaintiffs have prevailed, and the public interest is clear, in this matter. It is the upholding of our constitution,"

Bush's illegal spying - Salon.com

"With the revelation of domestic spying by the National Security Agency, the message transmitted by the Bush White House is crystal clear: When the president decides existing law is insufficient to protect Americans, he'll move ahead on his own and do whatever he deems necessary in the war on terror."

Sen. Russell Feingold: Bush's Warrantless Wiretapping Program is Illegal

"This program is breaking the law, and this President is breaking the law. Not only that, he is misleading the American people in his efforts to justify this program."

Impeach Bush, Illegal Wiretaps in violation of FISA law

"It authorizes the president “ to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001 , or harbored such organizations or persons.” "

Do you feel comfortable with that? What if by some act of God, the president determined YOU aided in the terrorist attacks somehow? What would you tell them when they put you in handcuffs and took you away without so much as a phone call?

This is the problem, they have set everything up in a way where it is all legal, yes, but just because it's legal, doesn't make it right, can you grasp that concept? They mumble all the words together and make it unclear who can and cannot be considered a terrorist. There are laws out there that are in place to protect people from crimes they commit, this is CLEARLY one of those laws. You can say it's legal all you want, you can show me the law that says the president has the authority to steal all my shit and lock me up and throw away the key if he thinks I'm a terrorist, if that law existed I would never abide by it, as I would expect you wouldn't, but suspect you probably would... because after all, it is 'the law' right? Whatever is a law must be written in gold to never be changed again... How does George Bush have the authority over me, my shit, my American dream, and everything I have and have ever worked for, simply by adding the fucking title "president of the United States" to his business card? Hopefully you know, HE DOESN'T and no matter what fucking law is in place in any document anywhere, no matter how many people abide by it, I NEVER will, I assure you. Laws don't own people, people make laws and not every law is flawless.

Crazy laws by U.S state » Make You Go Hmm

go check out that site for a list of crazy laws, then come back and tell me every law is flawless.

NIE 2002-16HC, October 2002, Iraq's Continuing Programs for Weapons of Mass Destruction

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB129/nie.pdf (enjoy all the whited out documents though...)

"The Committee is extremely disappointed by the CIA's excessive redactions to the report." News accounts quoting Senate sources estimate that this excessive redaction amounted to 50% of the entire text.

Bush knew Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction | Salon

Original Niger Reporting

REPORT ON THE U.S. INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY'S PREWAR INTELLIGENCE ASSESSMENTS ON IRAQ

McClatchy Washington Bureau | 10/04/2002 | CIA report reveals analysts' split over extent of Iraqi nuclear threat

Show me some sources.

So why didn't Dick and Bush ever go under oath again?

What would you call selling weapons to a handful of 'terrorist' states in the middle east, like when we gave the Afghan's a ton of weapons to fight the Soviets in the 80's? I'm pretty sure that would be considered giving aid to the enemy...no? Then again, that was Bush Sr. and Reagans administrations... And what would you call these two huge international wars going on right now? We were supposidly attacked by 19 men who operated in a terrorist cell that happened to be based in Afghanistan, so we invade the entire country, raze it to the ground on all respectable levels, yet do not produce the man responsible, then invade it's neighboring country, which did not attack us and the outcome of which did not produce any, or support the previous intel recieved by 'numerous different countries intelligence agencies', all of which amounted to 4,000+ American soldiers being killed in action, tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi and Afghani civilians, and no end as far as the eye can see....I'm pretty sure that one would fall under 'levying war against them'.

__________________
"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail"
-Harold R. McAlindon

"How we raise our children is the most critical thing we do in our lifetime. The future is in thier hands and they will shape tomorrow based on what they learn from us today."
-John Doe Smith

"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned."

rightwinger

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This is getting too long.

Let's try and stay on subject. I'll try and address your overall points, without getting into the quote...text, quote text method. That gets annoying, I think.

Ok.

1.) My answer to the question, "have people been tortured at Gitmo" is "I do not know." So, my answer to the question "Did the president order that torture" My answer would be "I don't know"

To the question: "what would it take to get you to believe" my answer is "more than hearsay"

2.) I never said that all laws are perfect. I just said that you can't impeach someone, if they follow the law. You need something of "high crimes and misdemeanors"

3) What did you want links for? The pre war intelligence about Iraq's WMDs? The agreement of numerous intelligence agencies, or Sadamm's general's believing that there were weapons? Or evidence of Hussein's tactics, of posing, and bluffing that he actually had weapons?

4) The people we armed during the 80s, were at the time, allies. I don't think you can accuse them of treason, based on arming allies, that later became enemies. It is clear that the definition of treason in the constitution, is arming enemies...for the purpose of arming enemies.

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Here's a news-flash, my friend. Warrant-less wire-taps ARE illegal. It's called SPYING. The whole reason you have warrants is so that it becomes legal! That's also why warrants require the case to present factual, compelling evidence to support the suspicion that would make a warrant possible. The fact of the matter is that Bush spied on (and will continue to spy on) the people of the United States. The Fourth Amendment was violated. The fact that you refuse to accept the plain and simple truth of that is staggering.



The 'exception' to the law that this article discusses is only one case (Katz vs. The United States). There are thousands of other cases of which the White House is not exempt of the blame.
I won't even get into how unconstitutional the entire government has become, but sufficient to say laws like this already break the President's vow to uphold the Constitution. He should have been thrown out of office long before he could ever implement them.


MY FUCKING ASS IT'S NOT THE ISSUE! The president is there to protect and defend the people, not erode their liberties and impose unconstitutional laws on them!

Not only has Bush FAILED to live up to his requirements as a president, he's also FAILED to serve the Constitution. He invaded Afghanistan and Iraq without a formal declaration of war, which is AGAINST the Constitution (source is my punch in your face if you argue this point because it's fucking plain as day written in YOUR bloody Constitution which you should know better than I do anyways!). He has signed bills that blatantly defy the Constitution (including suspending habeas corpus (Hamdi vs. Rumsfeld) and the Homeland Security Act). He has set up "Free Speech Zones" in direct violation of the First Amendment. He has refused to submit for an audit, claiming that the White House is neither part of the Legislative nor Executive branches. He has deliberately misled the U.S. public, causing irreversible harm to the country (more U.S. citizens have died fighting overseas than who died during the Sept. 11 incident!).
And as if all of that wasn't enough, he is still trying to get MORE dictator powers to himself.
LINK.


Lying to the people of the United States violates the oath Bush took at his inauguration. His Constitutional duty, which he swore to uphold, is to protect and defend the people. Telling them lies does the exact opposite.

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