What is more important to you?

Static · #1 (**permalink**) 05-29-2008, 04:39 PM

-Upholding the United States Constitution

or

-Disregarding the United States Constitution and not worrying about impeachment proceedings because the election is so close and it would 'rip the country appart' (as if it isn't already...)

Seriously, this is what is has come to.

I sent a letter to senators Boxer and Feinstein, both D. CA, asking essentially why the hell the president and his entire fucking cabinet havn't been impeached yet, and both responses lingered on the lines of 'it's too close to election time, it would devide the country in a time when we all need to band together, I think they even mentioned it would weaken the democratic runner in the election against McCain! (which I think the opposite, I think it would show the democrats have balls who don't get pushed around)

In light Scott McClellen's book that was just published, I really think there's a strong case for impeachment, and with every passing day more evidence to impeach this administration is found. McClellen says the president lied about going to war; it was not just a case of "bad intelligence," but intentional deception. This is an impeachable crime.

So it seems to me this is the situation;

-The president (and his staff) have committed impeachable crimes (this is fact)
-The next presidential election is almost 6 months away and our representatives in congress (with the exception of Wexler and the judiciary committee) and the senate refuse to hold impeachment proceedings because it would (allegedly) devide the country and weaken the democratic frontrunner

So what does an American citizen do when the leaders of this country don't follow the rules?

...this is the type of stuff that breeds fanatical responses in the public sector. Does anyone else have a feeling of complete helplessness, like nobody will listen to you, and the ones that will won't do anything?

**Brother of Yeshua** · 05-29-2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Static

So what does an American citizen do when the leaders of this country don't follow the rules?

...this is the type of stuff that breeds fanatical responses in the public sector. Does anyone else have a feeling of complete helplessness, like nobody will listen to you, and the ones that will won't do anything?

I guess it becomes an issue of what to do and getting enough people to agree on what it is to do.

I have no illusion that I have any definitive solution. Revolution sounds nice, but what does that even mean? How do we achieve it when nearly every successful revolution has been funded by the same people funding those being overthrown, and in that sense, controlled? More importantly, will another violent revolution, in a long line of violent revolutions over the last 6000 years or so, bring about any change that will truly be different than what we have already begotten? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is one definition for insanity.

I definitely can identify with how you feel. Case in point, today I did this little artistic work with an article in the paper:

A co-worker says "well at least it's not Bush."

I explained to her that I'm no Bush supporter, but tried to spell out how much Hillary and Bush are THE SAME and how she will use all the same loopholes Bush has used, and the hundreds more he has created, and we will be no better off until someone who respects the rule of Constitutional law is in the white house.

She says "So what makes you think a Republican can do it?"

I kindly told her that I don't vote on party lines, but I do like Ron Paul, though it is unlikely he will win. I explained to her my views on the two-party system in America, and how both are now pro-government and pro-corporation, neither of which is good for the country at large, only the rich few.

She literally could not fathom how someone could not like Bush and Clinton.

This is the prison of the mind we are up against. People who can only think linearly in black and white fashion, with no room for personal opinion, growth, development, or consciousness of their biases.

This is not totally their fault. We are all to some effect products of our environment. However, for those of us who feel we have greater knowledge that needs to be spread, whatever that may be, have a responsibility to not be afraid to share and be bold and bring these conversations out to the world. At the same time, all people have a responsibility to consider all things, find out facts for themselves, and start to actually form their own opinions, free from the shackles of conforming labels.

Again, personal responsibility is ultimately what will have to bring about change. If one group forces their view of revolution on others and coerces them into going along, it is all for naught, because it's the same system of dominance we are all sitting here bitching about starting all over again. People all have to choose individually the role they will play in working against the system. A war on the government will be no more effective than any other war in history.

This is why I advocate non-violence, and this is why I say education is the number one priority.

The only meaningful revolution is one that occurs within the self, and is allowed to flourish in the world around you. I know that's more philosophical than political, but politics is all philosophy really anyway. A band of "revolutionaries" inciting people to follow along behind them is no different than what Bush did to get us into Iraq. It's morally wrong imo and I won't abide by it. Someone said "People deserve the government they get" and whoever said it is absolutely right. Unfortunately, it's the people at large, and not all of them individually do deserve it.

All the problems we have is because people are lazy and ignorant. I include myself in that statement. Then we have governments who would rather us be lazy and stupid than creating incentive for us to do better.

Until people revolt against the system that indoctrinates their minds, there will never be meaningful change. There is no need for violence to make this shift, only patience, time, education, persistence, and humility. These are a great deal harder to do than just start a war. Any dumb ape could do that.

I have no intentions of fleeing this land that I was born and raised in, nor do I have any intentions of attempting to overthrow any governmental authorities by force.

Personally, the best thing I think people equipped to do so could do is run for office. Locally, nationally, whatever you are able to find and whatever you have the hootzpah to take on. Imagine if even 20 more representatives like Ron Paul made it to Washington next election because of the movement that he has brought to national awareness? What if it were 50 more by 2012? It's not like we can't start from the bottom up, in fact, I'd dare to say that's how we should do it. The foundation is what's rotten, and the top will always fall when the bottom gives way.

Personally, I'm considering looking down the road to 2012 at what my options are.

I R DANIEL (Sin · 06-01-2008, 02:20 PM

well for 1, there is really no concrete evidence that bush has broken the law while in office. granted he may have done some really stupid stuff and pissed a lot of people off, it's still not grounds to impeach some one.

and secondly, to get all the paper work in order and get steam built up, it would take months. by the time congress is ready to hear the impeachment proceedings and hearings and all the legal mumbo jumbo, and make a decision, it would probably be around december.

it would be a waste of tax payers dollars. i'd rather see congress focus on more pressing matters at hand, rather than prove 2+2=4. it'd be ridiculous to ask for an impeachment hearing right now. not to mention, if he is impeached, who will take his position? Cheney? Rice? you pick

**Ginevra** · 06-01-2008, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I R DANIEL (Sin

well for 1, there is really no concrete evidence that bush has broken the law while in office. granted he may have done some really stupid stuff and pissed a lot of people off, it's still not grounds to impeach some one.

and secondly, to get all the paper work in order and get steam built up, it would take months. by the time congress is ready to hear the impeachment proceedings and hearings and all the legal mumbo jumbo, and make a decision, it would probably be around december.

it would be a waste of tax payers dollars. i'd rather see congress focus on more pressing matters at hand, rather than prove 2+2=4. it'd be ridiculous to ask for an impeachment hearing right now. not to mention, if he is impeached, who will take his position? Cheney? Rice? you pick

But if he was put up for impeachment, everyone would know about it. It wouldn't be something those internet people are talking about, or whatever. A lot more people would take it seriously.

Also, letting it slide shows that if you do things at the right time and put off judgment long enough, people will let it slide.

Static · 06-01-2008, 06:34 PM

^^^ Exactly, and by my count, the president has done plenty of things that are considered impeachable offenses. We'll hold impeachment proceedings for Clinton for sleeping with an intern, but Bush can eliminate habeas corpus, make torture legal 'under certain circumstances' (a first for America), start 2 major wars, Iraq being 100% illegal, and Afghanistan being questionable (as not everyone believes the official report of 911, which names Afghanistan as a primary target), have more than 4,000 American soldiers die under his command, I could litterally go on and on and on and on... This list is probably longer than McCains 1,200 page medical report for 8 years...

So, what gives?

(if I could, I would give every single extra penny I have earned this year to get president Bush [and his cabinet] impeached. This is a much better way to spend taxpayers money, not to mention exponentially less than it'll cost to keep the goddamn wars going for another half a decade... you do the math)

**Brother of Yeshua** · 06-01-2008, 07:50 PM

Maybe if we weren't wasting money on imprisioning non-violent drug offenders and maintaining a global empire war machine, we could afford to impeach president's who break the law.

Bush is currently breaking the law by continuing with the SPP without any consent or consultation from congress.

That's just one example.

I R DANIEL (Sin · 06-02-2008, 08:18 PM

[QUOT]But if he was put up for impeachment, everyone would know about it. It wouldn't be something those internet people are talking about, or whatever. A lot more people would take it seriously.

Also, letting it slide shows that if you do things at the right time and put off judgment long enough, people will let it slide.[/quote]

everyone knows he's a bad president. and if they don't know, it's more than likely because they've been in a coma for the past 7 years. every time he's on the news, they always mention is approval rating, which is below 30%.

and no, it's not letting it slide. it's bad enough the congress fails to act in a timely manner, let alone having to deal with an impeachment. impeaching him now, is like disciplining your dog for when he dug a hole a year ago.

also, impeaching him now will take the media's attention off of other important matters that need to be brought to the public, such as darfur, burma, china, aids, world hunger, the US economy, etc... it'd be like the OJ Simpson trial over again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Static

^^^ Exactly, and by my count, the president has done plenty of things that are considered impeachable offenses. We'll hold impeachment proceedings for Clinton for sleeping with an intern, but Bush can eliminate habeas corpus, make torture legal 'under certain circumstances' (a first for America), start 2 major wars, Iraq being 100% illegal, and Afghanistan being questionable (as not everyone believes the official report of 911, which names Afghanistan as a primary target), have more than 4,000 American soldiers die under his command, I could litterally go on and on and on and on... This list is probably longer than McCains 1,200 page medical report for 8 years...

So, what gives?

(if I could, I would give every single extra penny I have earned this year to get president Bush [and his cabinet] impeached. This is a much better way to spend taxpayers money, not to mention exponentially less than it'll cost to keep the goddamn wars going for another half a decade... you do the math)

1. clinton was impeached due to a republican majority in congress.
2. habeus corpus is allowed to be thrown away in times of war.
3. the two major wars was not started by bush. the president only has the power to wage war for 3 months. after that, he/she must get approval from congress. congress approved both wars.
4. there is nothing illegal, though it may be immoral, about starting a war
5. if there is one thing that is factual about the "9/11 report" it's that the taliban (which controlled the Afghani gov't) were harboring terrorist. in more laments terms, it's as if poland was harboring hilter and several nazi officials after wwii and refused to give them up.

I hate the guy too, but there are no grounds for dismissal. if there's one thing wrong with this country, it's people putting their emotions before the law. as much as you, and every one in the world may hate Bush, until he does anything illegal, he stays.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother of Yeshua

Maybe if we weren't wasting money on imprisioning non-violent drug offenders and maintaining a global empire war machine, we could afford to impeach president's who break the law.

Bush is currently breaking the law by continuing with the SPP without any consent or consultation from congress.

That's just one example.

prisoners don't cost that much money to maintain. let a lone it's kind of off topic.

And i'm not even sure if continuing with the SPP is against the law. it's illegal for the president to sign treaties w/o the consent of congress. the SPP i dont think even holds any legal bindings. it's like belonging to the better business bureau or something. it's only to promote prosperity amongst NAFTA members.

**Brother of Yeshua** · 06-02-2008, 08:49 PM

And you're ok with them circumventing laws by making a "club" instead of calling it a treaty?

So now instead of having to sign things, they can meet behind closed doors, make decisions without anyone, and then implement their ideology through each country, still getting the result those in power want while ignoring the people.

As far as Bush not breaking the law, this kind of illustrates that while he's not obtusely breaking the law, he's redefining it! Bush has made hundreds, maybe even thousands (I'm not sure of the number off the top of my head) of "executive orders" which basically bestow the president with new powers outside of any abiding law.

So now, the rule makers are the ones who get to keep changing the rules, and avoid breaking the law by changing, eliminating, or bureaucratizing whatever it is they don't like.

Bush is no more criminal than most of the president's preceding him in the previous century.

At some point we have to say "enough is enough" or it will only continue.

The only evils in your government are the ones you tolerate.

I R DANIEL (Sin · 06-03-2008, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother of Yeshua

And you're ok with them circumventing laws by making a "club" instead of calling it a treaty?

So now instead of having to sign things, they can meet behind closed doors, make decisions without anyone, and then implement their ideology through each country, still getting the result those in power want while ignoring the people.

As far as Bush not breaking the law, this kind of illustrates that while he's not obtusely breaking the law, he's redefining it! Bush has made hundreds, maybe even thousands (I'm not sure of the number off the top of my head) of "executive orders" which basically bestow the president with new powers outside of any abiding law.

So now, the rule makers are the ones who get to keep changing the rules, and avoid breaking the law by changing, eliminating, or bureaucratizing whatever it is they don't like.

Bush is no more criminal than most of the president's preceding him in the previous century.

At some point we have to say "enough is enough" or it will only continue.

The only evils in your government are the ones you tolerate.

the SPP is all talk. they don't do anything. it's all for show. the SPP doesnt do anything. like i said, it's just like the better business bureau. it doesn't enact anything. it doesn't demand anything. it's not a legal binding contract in anyway, shape, or form. it's like a 10yr old's goal to be president.

as soon as bush, or any other president actually breaks the law by signing a treaty or violating the constitution, then i'll be upset. but until then, this is all within bush's executive powers.

executive orders are executive powers. that's a problem with the constitution, not the president. and as far as him putting himself outside of the law, i would like to see proof of that. i think it's a bit of exaggeration.

i tolerate it, because legally, he hasn't done anything wrong. plain and simple.

**Brother of Yeshua** · 06-03-2008, 12:41 AM

LOL show me where in the Constitution it says executive orders are ok.

It doesn't.