How we really took Fallujah

Static · #1 (**permalink**) 07-09-2008, 08:04 PM

YouTube - DRAMATIC VIDEO shown of WAR CRIMES as U.S. Destroys FALLUJAH

Remember, this is just one incident...

07-09-2008, 09:36 PM

Thats sickening.

**Brother of Yeshua** · 07-09-2008, 10:55 PM

It's everything wrong with our military and foreign policy wrapped up in under three and a half minutes. Dominance and aggression are the greatest motivating factors.

Very disheartening, but I can't say I'm shocked.

4n7hr4x · 07-10-2008, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother of Yeshua

It's everything wrong with our military and foreign policy wrapped up in under three and a half minutes. Dominance and aggression are the greatest motivating factors.

Very disheartening, but I can't say I'm shocked.

Yeah can't really say I'm shocked, but its sickening to see who our soldiers are really killing over there. Makes you wonder are we killing the insurgents because they attack our troops or are the insurgents killing our troops because we are bombing their women and children. Who is really the terrorist in this situation?

And can we really consider ourselves "liberators" and "freedom fighters" when we're bombing the shit out of unarmed civilian locals.

**Brother of Yeshua** · 07-10-2008, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4n7hr4x

Yeah can't really say I'm shocked, but its sickening to see who our soldiers are really killing over there. Makes you wonder are we killing the insurgents because they attack our troops or are the insurgents killing our troops because we are bombing their women and children. Who is really the terrorist in this situation?

And can we really consider ourselves "liberators" and "freedom fighters" when we're bombing the shit out of unarmed civilian locals.

It seems you don't love America enough.

Have you tried wearing a flag pin on your lapel? I've heard it helps.

GentleSpikeResort · 07-10-2008, 06:43 PM

What a bunch of fuck ups we turn out to be.

rightwinger · 07-10-2008, 08:16 PM

Who was that group of people?

Also, that's not us taking Fallujah. That was the first operation. It was unsuccessful.

Air support was used, when our ground efforts weren't working too well. The "policing" element wasn't working, and the insurgents gained a foothold in that city.

It's easy to sit on the sidelines and say "why...how could the military kill innocent people"...they're not wearing a fucking "innocent person" button on their shirt, that tells you they aren't an insurgent. The enemy shields itself in schools, behind hospitals, in mosques...they hide themselves amongst the population.

On top of that....you gotta make a split second decision. You've told people to stay in their homes...or leave the city. You see a large group of people running up the street.....do you want to take the risk of having one of your patrols ambushed?

War is hell.

Static · 07-10-2008, 08:43 PM

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Who was that group of people?

The simple fact that you or I or the men in this video do not know who they are is the very reason they SHOULD NOT be allowed to fire. Since when is it acceptable to murder a person if there is even a slight chance that person is an innocent civilian?...let alone 30+, that's disgusting sir, hopefully even you can admit that.

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Air support was used, when our ground efforts weren't working too well. The "policing" element wasn't working, and the insurgents gained a foothold in that city.

So that gives us the right to patrol thousands of feet above safely in aircraft and drop smart bombs on 'designated terrorist targets' that are scattered among hundreds of other civilian structures and cause callateral damage like you saw in the video?

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It's easy to sit on the sidelines and say "why...how could the military kill innocent people"...they're not wearing a fucking "innocent person" button on their shirt, that tells you they aren't an insurgent. The enemy shields itself in schools, behind hospitals, in mosques...they hide themselves amongst the population.

As would I if I were them, it's a smart tactic because it decreases their chances of getting killed by troops that [atleast half of the time] uphold the rules of engagement. This tactic is the exact reason Cheney knew shit would become a 'quagmire' and a lot of analysts would argue urban warfare is the most difficult to win because of the high amount of a civilian population.

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On top of that....you gotta make a split second decision. You've told people to stay in their homes...or leave the city. You see a large group of people running up the street.....do you want to take the risk of having one of your patrols ambushed?

Dude, even if you stay in your home and a bomb like that gets dropped anywhere near your house, you're done, game over... That's kind of the point I'm trying to make. What if those people running down the street were on their way home, or running away from the real terrorists? Can't you put yourself in their place for one time in your life and imagine what something like that would be like, you have no chance of surviving a direct smart bomb attack, and you wouldn't even know what hit you...

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War is hell.

War is unneccessary in this day and age. War that nobody fully understands and war that countries get involved in over lies are far worse than hell could ever be.

**Ristaron** · 07-10-2008, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rightwinger

Who was that group of people?

Also, that's not us taking Fallujah. That was the first operation. It was unsuccessful.

Air support was used, when our ground efforts weren't working too well. The "policing" element wasn't working, and the insurgents gained a foothold in that city.

It's easy to sit on the sidelines and say "why...how could the military kill innocent people"...they're not wearing a fucking "innocent person" button on their shirt, that tells you they aren't an insurgent. The enemy shields itself in schools, behind hospitals, in mosques...they hide themselves amongst the population.

On top of that....you gotta make a split second decision. You've told people to stay in their homes...or leave the city. You see a large group of people running up the street.....do you want to take the risk of having one of your patrols ambushed?

War is hell.

Okay, I have done my absolute best to tolerate your blind denial of facts. In fairness to you, most of the stuff I've seen you object to is the (albeit iron-clad) logic connecting two events, but this fucking takes the cake.

This is VIDEO FOOTAGE of U.S. soldiers bombing CIVILIANS. Fucking CIVILIANS who have no connection to the insurgents by the clear evidence that they're running away from the rest of the battle, and the fact that they're a crowd of people! Insurgents are experts at hit-and-run, not at clustering in large groups while fucking airplanes roar overhead.

This is VIDEO FOOTAGE of heartless destruction that is the exact reason why so many countries HATE the United States. This is tantamount to using a shotgun to kill a fly in a fucking antiques museum, only instead of valuable artifacts your collateral damage is priceless LIVES.

This is VIDEO FOOTAGE of the FAILURE of the overseas forces to win, which paints more clearly than anything that you aren't there to win! As blind as the privates and corporals are, their generals know exactly how to win and how not to win. They are clearly not interested in winning, just annexing enough to set up bases and continue to funnel soldiers overseas in a war that is designed to have no end. And why, do you think, it's not designed to end? Money!

So fucking bang your head against a wall and get some common sense, and stop defending what are inhumane and heinous acts as being patriotic and grandiose, because yes, war is ugly, and guess what: these bloodthirsty U.S. soldiers seem to like it that way, and the people in power don't fucking give a shit!

rightwinger · 07-11-2008, 03:57 AM

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Since when is it acceptable to murder a person if there is even a slight chance that person is an innocent civilian?

When you're in the middle of a warzone, and have told civilians to leave the city...or stay in their houses.

I'm not saying it's okay. But, given the circumstances....it's a tough place to be. It's a tough thing to do. Do you spare the lives of 30 Iraqis....and risk them ambushing a group of American soldiers?

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So that gives us the right to patrol thousands of feet above safely in aircraft and drop smart bombs on 'designated terrorist targets' that are scattered among hundreds of other civilian structures and cause callateral damage like you saw in the video?

How would you suggest we quell the insurgency in that city?

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Can't you put yourself in their place for one time in your life and imagine what something like that would be like

Yes I can. Now can you put yourself in the place of an American military official.

You've warned the civilians to leave the city, or if they have to stay...to stay inside. You see a group of a couple dozen people running down the street....possibly towards a group of your troops.....and you have exactly 10 seconds to make a decision.

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War is unneccessary in this day and age

When has war been necessary?

And what makes this day and age, different from other times?

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They are clearly not interested in winning

So......why have they changed generals in charge of the conflict? Why have they implemented new strategies? Why has the violence decreased so dramatically over the past couple months? Why have we scaled down the number of troops in certain areas of the country, and ceded more control over to the Iraqi forces?

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And why, do you think, it's not designed to end? Money!

Money for who?

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So fucking bang your head against a wall and get some common sense, and stop defending what are inhumane and heinous acts as being patriotic and grandiose

Point to where I called them patriotic and grandiose?

I call it a tragedy. I call it an ugly occurrence, in an ugly situation. I call it a poor decision, made under extreme pressure.

Also, I will go back to one more quote from Static:

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As would I if I were them, it's a smart tactic because it decreases their chances of getting killed by troops that [atleast half of the time] uphold the rules of engagement

Yes. Our military does uphold the rules of engagement, more than "at least half the time" as well.

That's what angers me. The military, for the most part, goes out of it's way to try and avoid collateral damage. They do everything they can to stop it. Talk to people who have been there, they'll tell you how cumbersome they feel the rules of engagement are.

But, this story gets highlighted to try and paint a picture of the American military as murdering, bloodthirsty people...who are targeting civilians.

And there are plenty of people, I like to call them "sheeple" who will buy right into that notion, without actually learning about the real issue. And then those sheeple will accuse others of lacking common sense, and of ignoring facts.