Skeptic Bible Study: Jesus Never Existed

JumpInTheFire · 05-18-2008, 03:51 AM

Just one of my video clips by John Armstrong, check out his YouTube Channel, great stuff

YouTube - Skeptic Bible Study: Jesus Never Existed

YouTube - JohnLArmstrong's Channel

**Brother of Yeshua** · 05-18-2008, 12:59 PM

He assumes no words were left because the powers at be did not include them in the Bible. He's right to be skeptical of the canonical scriptures, but what does he do with the MOUNTAINS of writings withheld and kept in secrecy by the Vatican?

There is an account of the life of Jesus written in Aramaic, which has been long withheld by the Roman Catholic government. It has been withheld because it could weaken the faith of "the one true church." This is because it completely shatters the illusion that has been created of who the man Yeshua, called Christ/Messiah/The Anointed.

Slowly more and more sources have been released by the Papacy. Now new information, including the claimed "Jesus Tomb" and a history of a man in India who bears a compelling history that matches the gaps of the canonical accounts of him.

As far as Jesus saying he was the only begotten son of God, that's debatable. Things documented that Jesus said that are similar across both canonical and non-canonical accounts include:

"Why do you call me good? No one is good but God."
He states that no one is greater than John the Baptist.
When Peter says he is the Messiah, Jesus tells him not to tell anyone that.
He states that those greater than him (or sometimes those doing greater things) will be coming after him.

The Gnostics were the original Christians. I've NEVER heard this guys claims that they viewed Jesus as existing in a higher spiritual realm and not physically. They believe he was connected to God at a higher spiritual level and the greatest of the prophets (much as Buddhism and Islam teach, replacing God with "universe" and "Allah" respectively). They do not believe him as God incarnate, but as an example in how to live life.

The earliest Gnostics (labelled such by Rome after they had manufactured Christianity and began wiping out these peaceful nomadic sects) were the Essenes and the Ebionites. The Nazarenes came shortly after.

None of these groups had anything to do with "say you love Jesus and you'll be saved." Jesus was a role model, a figure of inspiration, much as many other great leaders who have come before and after (Dr. King and Mahatma Gandhi come to mind).

However, seeing the chance to usurp this religion of love and forgiveness and community, Rome stole the beliefs, altered and muddied the waters, and instilled their own pagan beliefs over top of the ideals of the earliest "Christians."

SOME PAGAN BELIEFS FOUND IN DOGMATIC CHRISTIANITY:
Trinitarian belief system
God impregnates a mortal
God-child offspring worthy of worship
Virgin Birth
Death and Ressurection
Easter and Christmas scheduled according to solstice holidays. Trees, rabbits, eggs, lights, and many other symbols of these holidays have pagan origins.

None of these ideas were held by ANY of the earliest sects of what we could label as "christians."

Saying that many writings from the time of Jesus omit accounts of him disprove someone named Yeshua existed and lived in what is now the Palestinian/Israeli region. However, it is also historically shown that Rome destroyed documents counter to their version of Christianity, so how can potentially edited history (as the books of the Christian Bible have been as well) prove or disprove anything other than we know what the government of the time wanted people to think.

The guy has a lot of good information, but he misses the fact that there has been more and more evidence surfacing recently that a man who fits the description of Jesus did exist. However, the picture being painted is much different than what we have all been told to believe for about 2000 years......

**Ristaron** · 05-18-2008, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother of Yeshua

He assumes no words were left because the powers at be did not include them in the Bible. He's right to be skeptical of the canonical scriptures, but what does he do with the MOUNTAINS of writings withheld and kept in secrecy by the Vatican?

There is an account of the life of Jesus written in Aramaic, which has been long withheld by the Roman Catholic government. It has been withheld because it could weaken the faith of "the one true church." This is because it completely shatters the illusion that has been created of who the man Yeshua, called Christ/Messiah/The Anointed.

Slowly more and more sources have been released by the Papacy. Now new information, including the claimed "Jesus Tomb" and a history of a man in India who bears a compelling history that matches the gaps of the canonical accounts of him.

As far as Jesus saying he was the only begotten son of God, that's debatable. Things documented that Jesus said that are similar across both canonical and non-canonical accounts include:

"Why do you call me good? No one is good but God."
He states that no one is greater than John the Baptist.
When Peter says he is the Messiah, Jesus tells him not to tell anyone that.
He states that those greater than him (or sometimes those doing greater things) will be coming after him.

The Gnostics were the original Christians. I've NEVER heard this guys claims that they viewed Jesus as existing in a higher spiritual realm and not physically. They believe he was connected to God at a higher spiritual level and the greatest of the prophets (much as Buddhism and Islam teach, replacing God with "universe" and "Allah" respectively). They do not believe him as God incarnate, but as an example in how to live life.

The earliest Gnostics (labelled such by Rome after they had manufactured Christianity and began wiping out these peaceful nomadic sects) were the Essenes and the Ebionites. The Nazarenes came shortly after.

None of these groups had anything to do with "say you love Jesus and you'll be saved." Jesus was a role model, a figure of inspiration, much as many other great leaders who have come before and after (Dr. King and Mahatma Gandhi come to mind).

However, seeing the chance to usurp this religion of love and forgiveness and community, Rome stole the beliefs, altered and muddied the waters, and instilled their own pagan beliefs over top of the ideals of the earliest "Christians."

SOME PAGAN BELIEFS FOUND IN DOGMATIC CHRISTIANITY:
Trinitarian belief system
God impregnates a mortal
God-child offspring worthy of worship
Virgin Birth
Death and Ressurection
Easter and Christmas scheduled according to solstice holidays. Trees, rabbits, eggs, lights, and many other symbols of these holidays have pagan origins.

None of these ideas were held by ANY of the earliest sects of what we could label as "christians."

Saying that many writings from the time of Jesus omit accounts of him disprove someone named Yeshua existed and lived in what is now the Palestinian/Israeli region. However, it is also historically shown that Rome destroyed documents counter to their version of Christianity, so how can potentially edited history (as the books of the Christian Bible have been as well) prove or disprove anything other than we know what the government of the time wanted people to think.

The guy has a lot of good information, but he misses the fact that there has been more and more evidence surfacing recently that a man who fits the description of Jesus did exist. However, the picture being painted is much different than what we have all been told to believe for about 2000 years......

I would really like to see your sources. Especially the ones about the Vatican.

The video was very well put together and I feel that it covered a lot of the obvious in a very concise fashion. The point-of-the-matter is that Jesus never wrote anything, nor were there any official records of his existence or his 'miracles' that held up under even the most minimal scrutiny. (To augment the point, I'll also add that Armstrong didn't even mention that "Christ[us]" is a title, and not a name. Verifiable official records of the time suggest that there were many 'messiahs' floating around making noise, and the vast majority of them claimed the title "Christ[us]". It is not evidence for Jesus/Yeshua so much as it is religious fanatics of the time.)

This vid actually reminded me about the book my dad bought for me, also by Lee Strobel. It's in the same line as "The Case For Christ", this one is "The Case For Faith". I've been holding off on starting it until I buy some pencils so I can mark up the margins with rational discourse and biological/historical evidence that refutes what is said, that way I can give the 'annotated' version back to my dad without having to re-read it... which I know I won't be able to do. A brief perusal of some of the pages has already revealed to me that I will only have the patience to read it through once. >_<

**Brother of Yeshua** · 05-18-2008, 04:00 PM

This is a good book to read on the subject of the formation of what is now the canonical NT.

As far as the Vatican having secret libraries....well....they admit it themselves.

http://asv.vatican.va/en/doc/1_doc.htm

There is, what has come to be known as at least, a "Gospel of the Essenses," which the movie Stigmata was based loosely around. A cleric found the documents in the 1920's I believe, and attempted to translate them, only finding more and more opposition. I believe they were finally released after Vatican II, but it may have been before and I could be remembering that wrong.

Not to mention how much they stonewalled the translation of The Dead Sea Scrolls

Also, if you look at how Rome founded Christianity as a dogmatic religion (which it was not up to that point.....nor was it really a cohesive religion with the title "Christianity") and the canonization process of what is now considered "holy scripture," there is a web of discrepancies and deceit that begins to form.

JumpInTheFire · 05-20-2008, 02:27 PM

I won't debate whether or not there are newer sources or evidence of a "jesus" existing, etc, but my main point about this guy wasn't that exact video, it was the compilation of all his videos.

All together, he continually discredits the bible, with the bible. It's great stuff

**Brother of Yeshua** · 05-20-2008, 04:23 PM

I do enjoy his videos (I had to watch more after this one). He raises a lot of awesome points. I just pointed out some things I disagreed with, and while I agree the portrayal of the man called Jesus the Christ is filled with fabrications, mistranslations, and downright lies, there is plenty of historical evidence for someone who fits this profile.

Just not in the manner Christianity wants you to think of him.

As far as not debating the existence of Jesus (whoever that may be) isn't that the thread title?

JumpInTheFire · 05-20-2008, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother of Yeshua

I do enjoy his videos (I had to watch more after this one). He raises a lot of awesome points. I just pointed out some things I disagreed with, and while I agree the portrayal of the man called Jesus the Christ is filled with fabrications, mistranslations, and downright lies, there is plenty of historical evidence for someone who fits this profile.

Just not in the manner Christianity wants you to think of him.

As far as not debating the existence of Jesus (whoever that may be) isn't that the thread title?

No, by not debating, I meant only the "new" sources you refer to. Because I am unware of any "new" sources.

However, if someone were to debate me over Jesus' existence with the usual Christian evidence, thats where I step in

**Brother of Yeshua** · 05-20-2008, 09:21 PM

Ahhhh I gotcha. I'll dig up some links for you and anyone else who is curious.

JumpInTheFire · 05-21-2008, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother of Yeshua

Ahhhh I gotcha. I'll dig up some links for you and anyone else who is curious.

Much Appreciated