Evolutionary Possibility: Humans with wings?

**Ristaron** · 10-22-2007, 11:31 PM

I've always been in love with the classic depiction of angels, appearing as normal humans (aside from the perfect skin and halos...) with wings; and it's got me wondering for a long time: could humans ever fly with wings like that?

Well, the question has been asked a lot, and the general consensus is that we'd A) require enormous pectoral muscles to support the wings (given that flying involves beating the wings down, which would require a pull) and B) the wingspan would be enormous.

How enormous? Well the extant California Condors of North America have wingspans that can reach 3 meters (9-10 feet), and they only weigh an average of 23 lbs (10.4 kg). The Red-Tailed Hawk, on the other hand, are an average of about 4 lbs (just under 2000 grams) and have a wingspan of up to 57 inches (145 cm).

The Terratornis, the largest feathered bird likely seen in North America (which went extinct thousands upon thousands of years ago) was an average of 29 inches long, weighed an average of 33 lbs, and had an average wingspan of up to 12 feet.

Humans would also have to undergo some major evolutionary changes, such as developing a lighter bone system and losing a couple less-necessary organs and muscles, as well as probably some brain matter to allow for smaller heads (and therefore thinner skulls).

I've been reading up in SciFi forums, Wikipedia, and a bunch of other resources, and I'm curious as to what other people think.
Here's a link to one of the best read-ups I've seen:
Wings - SciForums.com

Discuss!

P.S. I would estimate that we'd need a wingspan of at least twenty feet to support us, as well as lighter bones and enormous pecks. We'd also probably get hunched shoulders as a result of wings developing because of where they'd be, right below our shoulder blades.
P.P.S. I've created this thread here in the Atheism section as a discussion of the evolutionary possibility of humans being able to fly. I don't want to see bullshit about going to heaven to get wings, or hearing that angels really fly by faith blah blah bullshit. *glare*

**SeaStone** · 10-22-2007, 11:52 PM

You could always go to heaven and get some wings.

...

Or KFC. Whichever strikes your fancy.

But seriously, I don't think this will ever happen. Where's the need to fly? We have no need to run from predators, nor the need to catch prey, so I see no reasons to have wings. (Other than it being cool.)

Not only that, but how would we store these wings? Twenty feet is well beyond our height, and even with the wings folded we'd have to stay stooped at all times for out wings not to drag. (After all that hardship of standing up straight.)

yossarian · 10-23-2007, 12:20 AM

or you could star in a movie directed by the Great Kevin Smith.

Interesting idea. but i would have to agree with seastone. The phenomenon of Evolution via genetic mutations typically occur due to need or necessity. Also, you have to consider symmetry. Mammals are typically heavy, wide bodied creatures vs birds and reptiles are are light and thin. Hell, the rate we're going, we'll be 900 lb whales going to starbucks and Mcdonalds before you know it.

**Ristaron** · 10-23-2007, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yossarian

I knew this picture was going to crop up.
But, think, given the opportunity of flight, people would probably not eat so much so they could fly.
Also, if we removed a kidney, we wouldn't have to eat so much red meat and could easily get by on more grains. It would cut down on carbs, which would mean we couldn't go for really long flights, but we would be able to fly a fair distance...

And if we re-developed our lower-back muscles, we could support our upper body with the wings. We'd still have hunched shoulders, probably, though.

**SeaStone** · 10-23-2007, 12:37 AM

Psh, you addressed his points, but not mine.

yossarian · 10-23-2007, 12:39 AM

If you gave every human a choice:

to remove a kidney, eat healthy, give up red meat, consume only grains (which are carbs, btw), fruits, and veggies, ect... and work out to tone your back and pectoral muscles...

or

Consume whatever you can to survive, save money doing so, and please make it fast, i have a flight to catch... (note the irony)

What is the human condition going to lean torwards?

**Ristaron** · 10-23-2007, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeaStone

Psh, you addressed his points, but not mine.

Your post was such a killjoy, though.

I was more concerned with the possibility than the likelihood. Clearly we have no need for wings, except to escape velociraptors, but it would still be fucking cool!

Quote:

Originally Posted by yossarian

If you gave every human a choice:

to remove a kidney, eat healthy, give up red meat, consume only grains (which are carbs, btw), fruits, and veggies, ect... and work out to tone your back and pectoral muscles...

or

Consume whatever you can to survive, save money doing so, and please make it fast, i have a flight to catch... (note the irony)

What is the human condition going to lean torwards?

If I would be able to fly with wings for the price above, I'd do it. I've always wanted to fly. Fuck everyone else. Raptor bait.

P.S. cutting out red meat and eating more grains still doesn't result in the same amount of carbs. Or is that protein...

yossarian · 10-23-2007, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

If I would be able to fly with wings for the price above, I'd do it....

yeah, but evolution doesnt take place over night. Let's just say that if hypothetically your theory is valid, now you just have to find a culture that will be willing to live that lifestyle and mate, for... 1 million years. (cause from Lucy to Humans today, it has only been 3.18 million years. )

Who the Hell is Lucy?

Whales seem more feasible now, don't they?

EDIT: Red meat is protein. Grains are carbs. They will still need some source of protein to build those muscles ur talking about. so maybe some lentils, beans, seeds, and nuts? That still doesnt cover all 20 amino acids required for cellular metabolism and growth.

Chill · 10-23-2007, 01:22 AM

why do we need wings? The idea of evolution is that the creature adapts to its surroundings and needs by improving itself through survival of the fittest.

We have metal birds! there is no food in the air that we cannot already capture.

If anything our brains will grow to accomodate the creation of more complicated technologies.

**SARS-expl0ted** · 10-23-2007, 06:16 AM

This is a 'what if' factor. He isn't saying that it is going to happen but what if it could and what would happen if it did.