Bias Marches On - Page 2

**Brother of Yeshua** · 09-20-2007, 10:19 AM

Police use unneeded force all the time. Not all police, but police in general do.

I work in a mental health residential treatment facility and we use restraints, but this situation was handled horribly.

Like I said, the is at the very least poor police training. This kid was no threat. He was making a scene yes, but he was not a threat. Instead of deescalating a situation, they created a bigger one.

They obviously don't know how to use a physical restraint on someone, and they certainly don't know how to escort properly.

Police should be trained to deescalate individuals non-physically, not just how to cart people off for whatever reason. I have one of the lowest restraint records, because I've been trained (and actually use the training) of how to verbally deescalate people.

If police would talk to people in situations like this instead of trying to dominate by force, we wouldn't have some of the situations we do right now.

Now, in fairness, the kid was stupid, and Lucifer you're right, he wasn't arrested until he started resisting. He would have been better off pulling a Gandhi and just sit. He should have been calm in this situation, because he allowed the situation to escalate by losing his cool. While the police may have incited it, in part, he should have been able to not run around like a wacky wave inflatable arm flailing tube man screaming like a little kid.

Even peaceful non-violent resistence could have got him tasered, but at least that way, he's not adding fuel to the fire.

**Ristaron** · 09-20-2007, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walker

Kerry is such a flake. Democrats wonder why Bush beat him in '04 but its not hard to see why when his own party has trouble supporting him.

This incident just goes to show how both parties are tainted.

Are you dense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer

Lesson of the day: If an officer requests you to do something - do it. You can protest it later through other channels that are far less likely to get you tasered.

Uh, more like make an even bigger scene because what the cops did was unconstitutional. He wasn't making a public disturbance because Kerry was trying to answer his questions. If Kerry had asked him to shut up, it would have been different.
The police officers were out of line, and Andrew could have handled it better and gone down a little more respectably, but in the end it makes the news and gets spread.
Had this happened in a town hall meeting with Bush, we'd all be screaming bloody murder, what is the difference with Kerry?

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitney_03

My brother is a police officer and I can tell you he would have done the same. I work at a psych hospital and I will tell you we give PRN meds and restraints BEFORE someone gets assaulted. The police use the same tactics. They use crisis prevention methods to restrain/subdue someone BEFORE they hurt someone. If this guy is a big fan of making a scene then the police obviously could not trust that he wouldn't have stooped to any kind of low to do so.
Why do people have such a low opinion of the people that risk their lives to keep us safe? I really don't understand why we are so quick to think that a police officer would do something intentionally to hurt someone. Just like anyone else in this field, they have to justify why they did this later to their supervisor and possibly in defense to their job, so why would they do something to endanger their job security?
Is that not bias? Is it not a prejudice?

Your brother needs to be re-trained. Tasering people is not the way to silence them. You wait until he actually is a public disturbance, and then you handle things without unnecessary force -- cuff him and escort him out. Don't taser him while he's pinned to the floor and you haven't even brought out the cuffs.

And fucking answer his question when he asks why he's being arrested.

tonto128 · 09-20-2007, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

Are you dense?

Uh, more like make an even bigger scene because what the cops did was unconstitutional. He wasn't making a public disturbance because Kerry was trying to answer his questions. If Kerry had asked him to shut up, it would have been different.
The police officers were out of line, and Andrew could have handled it better and gone down a little more respectably, but in the end it makes the news and gets spread.
Had this happened in a town hall meeting with Bush, we'd all be screaming bloody murder, what is the difference with Kerry?

Your brother needs to be re-trained. Tasering people is not the way to silence them. You wait until he actually is a public disturbance, and then you handle things without unnecessary force -- cuff him and escort him out. Don't taser him while he's pinned to the floor and you haven't even brought out the cuffs.

And fucking answer his question when he asks why he's being arrested.

love it

whitney_03 · 09-20-2007, 06:02 PM

It's not the police's job to verbally de-escalte people. Seriously, they would be shot or stabbed numerous times if they tried to do that. Me and you do similar jobs but in most cases we can feel pretty safe that the patients don't have weapons.
My brother doesn't need anymore training, he's had crisis situations where no one was harmed. He's protected himself, fellow officers and whoever was around at the time...he's done his job.
If you're going to act like a fucking idiot like this guy, expect some consequences and don't act like a whiny bitch when they're served up. Would this really be a big deal if some lady had a tazer gun and used it on this same guy because he was harassing her? Probably not because it happens everyday. I bet people who own tazer guns and mace don't wait until someone attacks them to use it either. In the video am I the only seeing that this guy is shoving and pushing the P.O's? He is clearly resisting arrest. He is behaving like someone who is beyond talking. Notice how everytime he breaks free, he goes back in the direction of John Kerry? Instead of the exit doors? What would a police officer assume about someone who is angry, shouting, pushing and shoving and going toward the person he started shouting at INSTEAD of toward exit doors where he could escape arrest? Hmmm...

tonto128 · 09-20-2007, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitney_03

It's not the police's job to verbally de-escalte people. Seriously, they would be shot or stabbed numerous times if they tried to do that. Me and you do similar jobs but in most cases we can feel pretty safe that the patients don't have weapons.
My brother doesn't need anymore training, he's had crisis situations where no one was harmed. He's protected himself, fellow officers and whoever was around at the time...he's done his job.
If you're going to act like a fucking idiot like this guy, expect some consequences and don't act like a whiny bitch when they're served up. Would this really be a big deal if some lady had a tazer gun and used it on this same guy because he was harassing her? Probably not because it happens everyday. I bet people who own tazer guns and mace don't wait until someone attacks them to use it either. In the video am I the only seeing that this guy is shoving and pushing the P.O's? He is clearly resisting arrest. He is behaving like someone who is beyond talking. Notice how everytime he breaks free, he goes back in the direction of John Kerry? Instead of the exit doors? What would a police officer assume about someone who is angry, shouting, pushing and shoving and going toward the person he started shouting at INSTEAD of toward exit doors where he could escape arrest? Hmmm...

how bout the guy's constitutional right? but oh yeah, i forgot, we were targeting your cop friend by saying that what happened was completely unnecessary. how bout the fact that kerry is in skull and bones society? hmmm, might that be a reason to ask him probing questions? no, of course not, because youll get tazered, right? and thats completely fine now, isnt it?

whitney_03 · 09-20-2007, 07:28 PM

He has no constitutional right to assault officers by shoving and pushing them.
Which constitutional right are you referring to? Does John Kerry not have a constitutional right to speak as well? Because I'm pretty sure with this man's erratic behaviors and demeanor there was no way Kerry was getting in a word edgewise. So it's okay for the guy to speak but not for John Kerry? So the fuck what if Kerry is in skulls and bones? Do you have any idea how many people are/have been members of that organization? It's just like any other fucking frat, why not harass people who are in the Free Masons? They're a 'secret society' too. What does that have to do with police action? Do the police only protect skulls and bones members? lol whatever man. If you don't know that people like this guy ask probing questions to draw attention to themselves then you are insurmountably naive. Not because they want to know but because they think they're doing the public a favor. I am a member of the public and I could care less if Kerry was in skull and bones, glee club or whatever else while he was in college.
I think it is fine for people to have consequences for their actions. I think that when the founding fathers established this country they would have thought this situation was ridiculous too. This is like people who smoke pot bitching when they get caught and thrown in because they have the right to smoke whatever they want. If you're breaking the law expect the consequences, grow the fuck up. If you're going to act like an irresponsible moron and make what I would deem as a mockery of the 1st amendment, then maybe you need someone keeping your ass in check. He assaulted officers and resisted arrest after clearly being ASKED to leave. When he was not compliant, police began to use necessary force to escort him out. When he still persisted, they used tactics to stop the further escalation. Like I said, these people have to justify their actions to their department, why would they do something "illegal" in a public venue? And no one has answered why this guy ran back toward Kerry instead of out the exit. No one has acknowledged that this man struck out at the police officers. This, not Mr Rogers, is the reason we have such a fucking entitled attitude about everything.

JumpInTheFire · 09-20-2007, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitney_03

My brother is a police officer and I can tell you he would have done the same. I work at a psych hospital and I will tell you we give PRN meds and restraints BEFORE someone gets assaulted. The police use the same tactics. They use crisis prevention methods to restrain/subdue someone BEFORE they hurt someone. If this guy is a big fan of making a scene then the police obviously could not trust that he wouldn't have stooped to any kind of low to do so.
Why do people have such a low opinion of the people that risk their lives to keep us safe? I really don't understand why we are so quick to think that a police officer would do something intentionally to hurt someone. Just like anyone else in this field, they have to justify why they did this later to their supervisor and possibly in defense to their job, so why would they do something to endanger their job security?
Is that not bias? Is it not a prejudice?

I can't comment on this specific incident, as i have yet to read/watch the different stories on it,

however as to your question about how can people be so negative towards (cops,etc) here is my answer

I do respect the authorities, as everyone should,
however in today's world, when America is slowly becoming more of a police-state, people are becoming prejudice towards cops
Many people have noticed the decline in the respected oath that all officers must take...the oath to the constitution

This of course isn't right, as you shouldn't be biased like that,
but im just answering your question

i have respect for your brother

**Brother of Yeshua** · 09-20-2007, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitney_03

He has no constitutional right to assault officers by shoving and pushing them.
Which constitutional right are you referring to? Does John Kerry not have a constitutional right to speak as well? Because I'm pretty sure with this man's erratic behaviors and demeanor there was no way Kerry was getting in a word edgewise. So it's okay for the guy to speak but not for John Kerry? So the fuck what if Kerry is in skulls and bones? Do you have any idea how many people are/have been members of that organization? It's just like any other fucking frat, why not harass people who are in the Free Masons? They're a 'secret society' too. What does that have to do with police action? Do the police only protect skulls and bones members? lol whatever man. If you don't know that people like this guy ask probing questions to draw attention to themselves then you are insurmountably naive. Not because they want to know but because they think they're doing the public a favor. I am a member of the public and I could care less if Kerry was in skull and bones, glee club or whatever else while he was in college.
I think it is fine for people to have consequences for their actions. I think that when the founding fathers established this country they would have thought this situation was ridiculous too. This is like people who smoke pot bitching when they get caught and thrown in because they have the right to smoke whatever they want. If you're breaking the law expect the consequences, grow the fuck up. If you're going to act like an irresponsible moron and make what I would deem as a mockery of the 1st amendment, then maybe you need someone keeping your ass in check. He assaulted officers and resisted arrest after clearly being ASKED to leave. When he was not compliant, police began to use necessary force to escort him out. When he still persisted, they used tactics to stop the further escalation. Like I said, these people have to justify their actions to their department, why would they do something "illegal" in a public venue? And no one has answered why this guy ran back toward Kerry instead of out the exit. No one has acknowledged that this man struck out at the police officers. This, not Mr Rogers, is the reason we have such a fucking entitled attitude about everything.

The kid never shoved them. He resisted yes, but he never assaulted anyone. I just watched the video and I only see him pulling away and leaning against them as they pushed to make it more difficult. There was no assault.

Yes he was resisting arrest, but he wasn't doing so violently so, at least not anymore violently than the police were being (which I admit is minimal amount of force in the beginning). I think he ran back towards Kerry because he was just trying to break away, not really looking where he was going. But maybe he was running back because he felt he was robbed his right.

Ristaron hit the nail on the head I think. The police should have just had the respect to tell the man why he was being arrested, even if the answer was "you're not, you're being escorted out." We do have a right to know why we are being manhandled and/or arrested by police. It has to be justified.

That right there could have potentially cleared up a lot of this firestorm and potentially misplaced anger on all sides of the argument.

UPDATE: Video below shows the young man taking his turn at the mic!

Watch it.

YouTube - Student Tasered At Kerry Speech: Longer Version

Lucifer · 09-21-2007, 06:21 AM

In that last linked video... you can CLEARLY see the female officer on the left talking to him as she attempts to escort him outside after his microphone was cut (she also asked him to get to the question while he was going on about the book and you can see his response is an "I'll get to it when I get to it" attitude even defending that attitude by stating Kerry was speaking for several hours, he should be able to take as much time as he wants to get to his question). It also sounded like she said "We're not." when he started asking "Why are you arresting me?", but that could just be what I made out. It's hard to tell since she's not speaking loudly while he is...

Another thing I could see in the above video is he was fighting attempts to handcuff his hands behind his back while begging not to be tazed. They police had gotten the cuff on his right wrist, but he was still struggling with his left arm until they tazed him. DESPITE his begging not to be tazed, he was still resisting until they did just that. From this angle, that gives MORE justification for the tazing that the previous videos have. As for whether they were justified in wrestling him to the ground and arresting him in the first place, I feel his own actions brought that on as you could plainly see they were seeking to escort him outside and WERE speaking with him but he remained resistant.

As to why he was being taken out, I still do not believe his final question had ANYTHING to do with it. From the previous videos, you can see the cop near the stage (who was close to the dean as well as Kerry), speaking into his walkie after the second question was asked. Whether it was the fact he said "blowjob" that provoked the dean to ask the mic to be cut and him to be removed or the fact he was taking so much time getting around to his questions and then saying "I have two MORE questions as well" and proceeding to ask them without waiting for an answer for the first one (which could give the impression, he didn't care about the answers as much as getting the questions out there for others to think about) caused the call to be made, I do not know. The fact still remains that MULTIPLE eyewitnesses have stated he interrupted ANOTHER speaker and rushed to the microphone demanding to be allowed to ask his questions in the first place... where the tape cuts in is AFTER Kerry told the officers NOT to escort him out for that and to allow him to ask his question IF he would let Kerry answer the question that had been interrupted. The video starts after Kerry goes BACK to the other speaker who was interrupted and finishes up that person's question.

Exactly WHICH Constitutional Right of his was stepped upon here? The Right to Free Speech doesn't allow a person to yell "Fire!" in a crowded movie theater... nor does it allow a person to come in off the street during a Presidential Press Conference and blurt out questions at the President out of order without being escorted out... so why should it allow him to interrupt the normal proceedings of a Q&A with John Kerry and then ask more than one question (without waiting for answers on the first two)?

EDIT: Also, Resisting Arrest is just that - Resisting. No matter HOW violently, whether by trying to break free or simply through complete lack of cooperation making your body basically dead weight the police have to drag around - it's still resisting arrest. If he had so much as PUSHED an officer (instead of merely making them off-balance by pulling away or bumping into them), he would have been charged with Assaulting a Police Officer - a much more aggravated offense.

acutelyaware · 09-21-2007, 08:37 AM

so, this is totally off subject. but why is kerry still making political speeches?
surely he know by now politics and him dont get along.

also, the police should each situation case by case, esp if the dude is apparently unarmed. they may have had the technical right to taser him, but really, look at him, was he really going to cause physical harm? and yet they enforced great physical means on him. use your brains, police, sometimes it is a case by case scenario.