Reality of God vs the Reality of numbers

Zen · #1 (**permalink**) 04-30-2008, 10:16 AM

I stumbled upon this post in Ristaron's blog and it intrigued me, so I thought i'd make a topic about it, as my post grew larger than a usual blog comment...

Ristaron: "There are some who call themselves 'Christian' who are of the opinion that the reality of God is as subjective as the reality of numbers; "this many" is only "this number" because we say it is. In spite of what number we associate with it, however, "this many" remains "this many".
To these people I ask: "Why, then, does Jesus say that he is 'the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through [him]. (John 14:6)'? If the ultimate reality is more than absolutes, how can you justify the odds when 2+2=5?""

I was a little unclear at what exactly you were arguing, but here are my thoughts...

"This many" remains "This many" until we derive a formula that "This many" also can = "That many."

The language of numbers is an infinite structure... (just as words and perceptions for that matter)
Part of numbers are easy to count, and easy to see that 2 + 2 = 4.

But in higher math, and digging in the form of reality, there is no "2," and no "4."
2 is rendered meaningless when attempting to count and symbolize a relative equation.

And this relativity, becomes in effect in any formula attempting to define reality.
In this case the idea of "subjectivity,"
I would argue that the reality of God is equal or can even be more subjective to people who submerse them self more to it.
While for people who subject themselves more so to the "reality of numbers," and believe that the reality of numbers is separate from God, have there own form of relativity, where the "reality of numbers" comes first.

So in this case "this many" = "that many"
And can also be less or more.

In my relative subjectiveness, I would say the reality of God incorporates the infinite reality of numbers And the infinite reality of words...

And when we start to add infinities,
2+2 equaling 5 becomes a minor concern.

"Why, then, does Jesus say that he is 'the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through [him]. (John 14:6)'?

A perspective on this quote would be that "the way and the truth and the life," and the "Father," in Jesus' perception, IS only accessible through {him}.
Yet {him}, at this point, is only a symbol and metaphor for love, forgiveness, and sacrifice in the name of God.
So in essence, Jesus is saying that the Ideal way to perceive life, is only accessible through this Word, through this image and perception of reality, through this Love...

**Ristaron** · 04-30-2008, 10:57 AM

In all honesty, I didn't really read your post. This really should have been submitted as a comment to the blog.

However, I will explain to you what I meant.

My blog was discussing people who believe in God, but not absolutes. People who believe that there is more than one "right way", so to speak. In my experiences, there is no resolution of the conflict between the absoluteness of God as in the Bible and the nihility of such absolutes as per their view of the universe.

Numbers, however, are always absolute. It is merely our interpretation of them that changes. But when we change the meaning of a number, we must change the meaning of other numbers as well. Therefore, two plus two cannot equal five unless two plus three equals four. Everything has to resolve, which is a state that people who believe in absoluteness and, simultaneously, in no absolutes cannot achieve.

**Opunaya** · 04-30-2008, 10:58 AM

Okay...that makes a lot more sense to me now, I think...

**Ristaron** · 04-30-2008, 11:09 AM

Just roll with it. Metaphysics is something you either tolerate or don't understand. Logic is something many people will never possess.

Zen · 04-30-2008, 11:20 AM

I wasn't in any way calling you out or anything, I just thought it was an interesting topic to discuss and brought it over here..

I partially misunderstood which direction you were taking your thoughts, but it is still interesting...

As far as absolutes and God, I guess it comes down to how much a person defines God as "This one thing."

In my views, though not restricted by a literal biblical perception, the absoluteness of God is one that surpasses one perception and takes on a multi-dimensional realm of infinite possibility, where an absolute spirit exists nonetheless throughout...

**Opunaya** · 04-30-2008, 11:21 AM

It's just the math example that gets me. And when you first mentioned Christians being in absoluteness, I thought you meant in terms of "right" and "wrong", because while most of the Christians I know believe that the world is solely black and white, with next-to-none gray areas...but...if I'm reading what you're saying right, you're saying that there's only one way to heaven--through Jesus. Well, that's how it's suppose to work for them, since He is God, in a sense, because Jesus was the physical incarnation of Him...and that's why we (or should I say they? Whatever, you know what I mean) changed from sacrificing lambs/cattle/people/whatever for forgiveness to merely asking Jesus for forgiveness...so, in order to get God's forgiveness, you have to ask Jesus...it's like working through a middle man.

The absolute thing is kind of hard...because faith doesn't really work with absolutes in my eyes. Christians don't need proof of God, because they can feel Him--I guess like the Force?

So...how far off am I on what you were talking about?

--------------- Added 30 Apr 2008 at 11:25 am ---------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zen

I wasn't in any way calling you out or anything, I just thought it was an interesting topic to discuss and brought it over here..

I partially misunderstood which direction you were taking your thoughts, but it is still interesting...

As far as absolutes and God, I guess it comes down to how much a person defines God as "This one thing."

In my views, though not restricted by a literal biblical perception, the absoluteness of God is one that surpasses one perception and takes on a multi-dimensional realm of infinite possibility, where an absolute spirit exists nonetheless throughout...

Well, yeah...everyone seems to have their different perspective on God, otherwise we wouldn't have 100,000 religions, with each one telling us that their God is the right one.

Sometimes, I don't get how people can say exactly "this" is God...since, being who He is, God's so far beyond our mortal minds can comprehend, that there's no way we could ever truly define what He is.

Zen · 04-30-2008, 11:43 AM

"The absolute thing is kind of hard...because faith doesn't really work with absolutes in my eyes. Christians don't need proof of God, because they can feel Him"

"Sometimes, I don't get how people can say exactly "this" is God...since, being who He is, God's so far beyond our mortal minds can comprehend, that there's no way we could ever truly define what He is."

I agree,absolutism is where the problems come in, whether it's in what form someone believes God exists, or that God takes no form and does not exist...

Unless the absolute is explained to incorporate more than one perception, how can one person believe 100% that they are right...

**Opunaya** · 04-30-2008, 11:49 AM

Like Rist touched on: from their perspective, they are right and everyone else is wrong, the have faith in their Faith. Catholics think Jews are wrong, Jews think Bhuddists are wrong, and so on and so forth. While they believe in a form on absoluteness, they believe in a proofless, optimistic absoluteness...does that make sense? People can't comprehend EVERYTHING--close-minded and open-minded alike--everyone comes to a point where they stands their ground and say "You're wrong, I'm right."

Zen · 04-30-2008, 01:32 PM

True, yet the closed minded leave no room to grow. They shut their mind off from that point... "You're wrong, i'm right, and i'm not listening or hearing otherwise.."

Where the open minded are still willing to learn, and are more adapt to change.
"You're wrong, i'm right, but i'm willing to hear your side."

Catholics and Jews can be pretty classic examples of closed mindedness, yet people of the more eastern religions of Buddhism and Hinduism tend to be more capable of seeing the place of other religions, and right and wrong doesn't come as much in to play...
It's more like different paths to the same light..

I can't help but feel "right," about keeping open-minded and willing to hear all sides before making a conclusion...
Am i being close minded about being open minded?

**Opunaya** · 04-30-2008, 01:36 PM

Recently though, it seems like Catholics and Jews have been opening up and become more easy going about things...honestly, I've only known one Jew in my entire life, but she was pretty laid back about things, and very accepting of other's beliefs.

Catholics seem to be some of the most rigid about their views, and Southern Baptists...

--------------- Added 30 Apr 2008 at 01:37 pm ---------------

I'm not saying anyone's being closed minded or open-minded, I'm just saying everyone has a limit to where they're either unwilling or unable to see someone else's point of view on something...at least, in my experience of the world.