Motive

**Ristaron** · #1 (**permalink**) 10-08-2007, 12:30 AM

Obviously, everything we do is dictated by motive. The motive can be whatever, even "because I can"; but I believe that all motives have selfish origins. Think about it:

The young man who risks his life to pull an old woman from the path of a Mack truck going 60 clicks can, on the surface, have the motive of wanting to save the woman's life. Rather self-less, don't you think?
But think again, what's in it for him?
The woman's gratitude, saving yourself from the guilt of the "what if I had gone and saved her and she hadn't been shmucked?", being able to look at your grandmother knowing that you won't always see the face of the woman who died?

The middle-aged man, who could survive on life-support, but who opts for euthanasia, leaving his copious amounts of money to his children may have the surface motive of not wanting to burden them, but what else could be the case?
Maybe he's in pain and wants to end it? Maybe he can't bear himself as a cripple? Maybe he wants to immortalize his generosity in the minds of his posterity?

The man who takes a bullet for his pregnant wife can either simply wish to save both their lives, or be seeking to prevent himself from experiencing the guilt of their deaths.

The woman who fights the man who wants her groceries can be motivated by the thought of feeding her starving children at home, or to feed herself, or to avoid the feeling of failure that would come from simply acquiescing to the offender's demands.

I'm a pragmatist, I look at the world knowing full-well that nobody's motives are truly pure, but are instead practical. Altruism is a myth that people look upon in hindsight, having interpreted any selfish concerns as negligible. We don't do anything that doesn't, in some way, benefit ourselves. We live in a society that stresses the reciprocal aspect of human nature; "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours", "what goes around comes around". Some call it Karma, some call it the Golden Rule... it's human interaction adapting to the environment. It's also less frequently the case that someone returns a good favour with an ill one, which explains why people are nice to each other: they seek to protect themselves by doing good deeds to elicit favour in others.

People are cowards, our sense of self-preservation is shared with all the rest of the animal kingdom. It's the basis for our every motive.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is a perfect example of the underlying psychology of this all... here's a link: [CLICK!]
Anyways, discuss.

tyrannosaurusjr · 10-08-2007, 01:20 AM

I'm studying right now, so I won't leave a lengthy response (yet), but I would like to briefly point out that, upon retrospection, you are more-or-less correct about selfishness, but if you take things into account a-priori or even at the moment of action (might call this the event's singularity), there is the distinct possibility for one and only one purpose/motive. Meaning, that which is transmitted upon action, is static, but interpretation, retrospection, of said meaning is a rather dynamic and unstable concept.

Ol' Patty · 10-08-2007, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

Obviously, everything we do is dictated by motive. The motive can be whatever, even "because I can"; but I believe that all motives have selfish origins.

I'm a pragmatist, I look at the world knowing full-well that nobody's motives are truly pure, but are instead practical. We live in a society that stresses the reciprocal aspect of human nature; "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours", "what goes around comes around". Some call it Karma, some call it the Golden Rule... it's human interaction adapting to the environment.

I believe all motives are selfish, as well. I don't think that our society has any affect on that. Unless you are just saying that our society is illustrating the selfishness point. Define pure motive, please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

It's also less frequently the case that someone returns a good favour with an ill one, which explains why people are nice to each other: they seek to protect themselves by doing good deeds to elicit favour in others.

People are cowards, our sense of self-preservation is shared with all the rest of the animal kingdom. It's the basis for our every motive.

This means people are cowardly? Why?

Bah... I'm not all here right now. I'm extremely tired. I wanted to post on this, though because It is the first thread that has really caught my interest in a while. I'll come back to this tomorrow after some sleep. Kudos.

**Ginevra** · 10-08-2007, 04:30 AM

I agree but I pose the question: What's wrong with this and how would you prefer it?

If you give every action 2 motives, the variable motive and the selfish one, you can still tell what kind of a person the person is by whether the variable motive is or isn't selfish. Some people will take a bullet, some won't.

**Ristaron** · 10-08-2007, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol' Patty

I believe all motives are selfish, as well. I don't think that our society has any affect on that. Unless you are just saying that our society is illustrating the selfishness point. Define pure motive, please.

I meant to add quotations around 'pure', indicating it to mean the selfless meaning people usually associate with "pure motives".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol' Patty

This means people are cowardly? Why?

Bah... I'm not all here right now. I'm extremely tired. I wanted to post on this, though because It is the first thread that has really caught my interest in a while. I'll come back to this tomorrow after some sleep. Kudos.

Because we seek to protect or further ourselves with every step. This isn't cowardice by my definition, but the vast majority of society would consider it so when looking at it in this light.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ginevra

I agree but I pose the question: What's wrong with this and how would you prefer it?

If you give every action 2 motives, the variable motive and the selfish one, you can still tell what kind of a person the person is by whether the variable motive is or isn't selfish. Some people will take a bullet, some won't.

There's nothing wrong with it, we're living creatures and therefore we have self-preservation instincts. If we didn't the world would be even more fucked up.
And those people who will take a bullet will have selfish motives for doing it, regardless of the alternative.

There was a case of a young woman about ten years back who became a reborn Christian. She was in her high school class when some very vehemently anti-religious fanatics stormed the school with guns. When asked if she believed in God, she replied "yes". She took the bullet thinking that she would go to a better place (whether or not she did or didn't isn't the issue and isn't important, the point is that she had selfish motives for her actions).

Look at the ubiquitous Seven Deadly Sins. They're all rooted in selfishness. Their counterparts, the Seven Holy Virtues, are more accurately described as denying the respective selfish intentions; which is an action that in and of itself has selfish motives. By denying your darker psyche you give yourself the image of being a better person, making you feel good about yourself. Even in Humility, the last of the Seven Holy Virtues, there is room for self-value.

**Opunaya** · 10-08-2007, 11:56 AM

In the first, third, and fourth case...something happening that suddenly doesn't usually leave time for a person to think, they merely react and think about WHY they did it later...

Ol' Patty · 10-08-2007, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

Because we seek to protect or further ourselves with every step. This isn't cowardice by my definition, but the vast majority of society would consider it so when looking at it in this light.

Do you think it is even possible to do otherwise? I don't think that there is anything wrong or unnatural about selfishness in itself.

**Ristaron** · 10-08-2007, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opunaya

In the first, third, and fourth case...something happening that suddenly doesn't usually leave time for a person to think, they merely react and think about WHY they did it later...

They react according to what their instincts tell them; and their instincts tell them that they should be a hero because otherwise they'll feel like they failed, or feel guilty, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol' Patty

Do you think it is even possible to do otherwise? I don't think that there is anything wrong or unnatural about selfishness in itself.

My entire argument is that we naturally seek to protect ourselves. No matter what we do, we're motivated by what's in it for us. Even being selfless brings good favour upon you. That's favour you can use later.

**Brother of Yeshua** · 10-08-2007, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

They react according to what their instincts tell them; and their instincts tell them that they should be a hero because otherwise they'll feel like they failed, or feel guilty, etc.

My entire argument is that we naturally seek to protect ourselves. No matter what we do, we're motivated by what's in it for us. Even being selfless brings good favour upon you. That's favour you can use later.

There's always something "in it for you" in everything, but that doesn't mean that is the primary motivation in the moment.

As T-Rex Jr. said, in that moment, one's self preservation may not be an existent motivation, but only placed upon it in retrospect.

I have been in situations where my actions were critical to the safety of others. In those moments, I do not think much, simply reacted, feeling very little in control of my specific actions, but feeling that I was doing exactly what I was supposed to, if that makes sense.

It's hard to explain, but never in those moments do I recall thinking (in the moment) any of the "sefish" reasons you mentioned above.

Perhaps the "selfish" things only manifest after one does what could be called a "good deed?"

EDIT hit post before I was done

And perhaps the things you mentioned people were avoiding (negative emotions or ideations) is natural guilt for ignoring another in need when you could have done something?

**Opunaya** · 10-08-2007, 02:00 PM

I don't know...it's hard for me to think about this, because I don't really feel guilty about stuff...the old lady walking out into the street? Oh well, that stuff happens. I don't know why I do the things I do NOW, even when I have the time to think about it...because usually, I do things that are the exact opposite of good.