Continued discussion on Patriotism and the Constitution

**Brother of Yeshua** · #1 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Static

It's really simple to me. I feel a little wierd using the word 'patriot' because it seems to have lost it's meaning in these times. What one person might think it means, may be completely different from another (just like Christianity...but that's another thread)... So here's my take...

The Constitution is not just a piece of paper, I believe it's one of the greatest documents ever created. It lays out a system that is arguably the best human history has seen. This document provides each one of us with essential freedoms we need to live happy lives. I couldn't care less who the fuck is in the white house or who the fuck writes the laws, this document supercedes them all unless amendments are passed and the idea that someone would defend this document with their life is the greatest example of 'patriotism' I can think of.

I posted this here because After I typed out this response, I realized it fit more in this forum.

Even the Constitution is lacking, as it allowed for us to get to this point. While Constitutionally, many things over the last 230 some years (you didn't think corruption of the Constitution was new did you?) are illegitimate, they have been made legal through legal loopholes.

While I agree with your view of the Constitution, it's still imperfect in practice.

So now we're left with a few questions.

1. Is it possible to even have a perfect system of governance?

2. If it is, can people abide by it without fucking it up?

3. Is something simply lacking from the Constitutional system of checks and balances? Or is the Constitution itself too bogged down in bureaucratic nonsense? Is the answer to "Simplify, simplify?"

Now, perfect can be taken as utopian world where there is no harm (doubtful, but possible) or in a more plausible sense, a system where bad things will still happen, but when they do, those responsible will pay a reasonable consequence.

Is it ever possible to have a completely just government?

Great example at the top, or in even broader terms, defining patriotism is a lot like defining God, and whether or not said God exists. It's so much based on individual outlook that it's kind of tough to get a universal answer on the subject.

Ol' Patty · 07-07-2008, 07:46 PM

Those are some difficult questions for sure. I don't know if humans are capable of creating a perfect governing system. Or that we are capable of being governed on a country level.

There is soooo much to take into consideration that my mind just reels from the enormity of even fathoming how to make something work. Even the question "should we improve upon or start anew," is loaded.

Our system is definitely buried in bureaucratic nonsense, but simplifying may not be the answer either. Simplifying will probably undoubtedly mean centralizing which is certainly a bad thing with our current leaders. The bureaucratic process was probably much more workable when the country was smaller. The same can probably be said for democracy. I think we need a new system of governance; something we haven't thought of before. I think we just outgrew our founding government.

Machines are the answer! Machines I say!

Static · 07-07-2008, 09:14 PM

Looking at the world today, you are right about the Constitution having flaws, otherwise we wouldn't be in this position. One of those flaws being that the checks and balances system has not been working effectively, it seems what Bushie want, Bushie get, and he acts like a 17 year old valley girl without a credit limit with taxpayers dollars. I can see the problem, the lawmakers believe they are above the laws they themselves make, some of them feel as if what they are doing does infact benifit the country, and some of them are just as ignorant as some regular American citizens, oblivious to all the corruption right under their noses, they just happen to be lucky enough to fill that spot in the House for their local district and enjoy a reasonably high annual pay for their 'troubles'... I agree with you that the Constitution is not 100% flawless, no doubt about it, however, I like I said, it is by far the best system of governance humanity has come up with yet. I am not oppose to changing the way we do things if a new, better system came about.

As for the questions;

- I believe 'perfect' is a subjective opinion, perfect for me won't be perfect for you, so no, we can not have a 'perfect system of governance'. We can however have VERY FUCKING GOOD systems, if said system holds certain values true, like accountability, responsibility, credibility, honesty, etc... under all circumstances, no matter who writes laws, enforces those laws, executes those laws, or abides by them.

- Most people don't care how the government works. They go through high school taking classes like American History and World Cultures, but find no interest what so ever in the subject, they have no motivation to learn or study it when they enter the real world, so that little boring taste is all they ever know. Some people go their whole lives just scratching the surface of how this huge subject affects their lives in so many different ways, they never divulge deep enough to get enticed, so when the country is viewed as this amazing place that upholds all the laws where freedom is at every doorstep and people have more money than they know what to do with, and then the guy in the crowd who stands up and speaks out against it, detailing all it's flaws and telling people that it isn't perfect, and it isn't great, and everything they think they know to be true is false, even providing reasonable logical solutions to move forward and make it better for everyone, the majority of those people who don't have any knowlege on the subject take it as an attack against their country, an attack against their president, instead of what it actually is, a reasonable solution to solving the problem. People need to get over so much political correctness and keep quiet and be respectful just because the person in power holds the position. Any position that demands respect isn't worthy of it. I think the most perfect system that we can ever hope for is one that is constantly changing and improving. A static system gets stagnant and people change over time, the way in which those people are governed should change accordingly.

- Simplifying the language within the Constitution itself would probably increase public interest in it, and make it easier to understand for the average person, because lets be honest, your average person isn't that bright. But I think a lot of what simplifying the document should consist of should be geared towards making it so the kids learning it understand it, and the importance of it, instead of just memorize it, take a test on it, then move to the next subject... I distinctly remember learning the system of governance in my highschool, and this is coming from a person who had no interest in politics/government in highschool, then on my own found it to be one of the most fascinating subjects available, so obviously the education way of teaching the subject is FLAWED BIG FUCKIN' TIME... now just think of the potential amount of people who would have become important figures in the political world if only they had been shown how interesting it can be before they left highschool... Also, take a look at the amount of people who know little to nothing about the subject, and are content about it. Is that the goal of teaching politics/government? Have a bunch of kids pass the class but 1 out of 100 go on with any slight interest in it at all? Another obvious flaw... I believe there is a lot of word play in the document itself, it's just that most people don't understand exactly what some things state, they may think it means one thing when it actually means another, they don't want to look up exactly what, they may not have a dictionary on hand or whatever, they just skip over it and move on, so simplifying the actual text could potentially have benifits to the American population, but there's the interest problem again, it's hard to get someone to read something 1 page long, let alone the fucking United States Constitution if they have no interest in it...

If the government in question holds certain values true, no matter what, then I believe we could possibly have a completely just government.

**Brother of Yeshua** · 07-08-2008, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Static

Looking at the world today, you are right about the Constitution having flaws, otherwise we wouldn't be in this position. One of those flaws being that the checks and balances system has not been working effectively, it seems what Bushie want, Bushie get, and he acts like a 17 year old valley girl without a credit limit with taxpayers dollars. I can see the problem, the lawmakers believe they are above the laws they themselves make, some of them feel as if what they are doing does infact benifit the country, and some of them are just as ignorant as some regular American citizens, oblivious to all the corruption right under their noses, they just happen to be lucky enough to fill that spot in the House for their local district and enjoy a reasonably high annual pay for their 'troubles'... I agree with you that the Constitution is not 100% flawless, no doubt about it, however, I like I said, it is by far the best system of governance humanity has come up with yet. I am not oppose to changing the way we do things if a new, better system came about.

As for the questions;

- I believe 'perfect' is a subjective opinion, perfect for me won't be perfect for you, so no, we can not have a 'perfect system of governance'. We can however have VERY FUCKING GOOD systems, if said system holds certain values true, like accountability, responsibility, credibility, honesty, etc... under all circumstances, no matter who writes laws, enforces those laws, executes those laws, or abides by them.

- Most people don't care how the government works. They go through high school taking classes like American History and World Cultures, but find no interest what so ever in the subject, they have no motivation to learn or study it when they enter the real world, so that little boring taste is all they ever know. Some people go their whole lives just scratching the surface of how this huge subject affects their lives in so many different ways, they never divulge deep enough to get enticed, so when the country is viewed as this amazing place that upholds all the laws where freedom is at every doorstep and people have more money than they know what to do with, and then the guy in the crowd who stands up and speaks out against it, detailing all it's flaws and telling people that it isn't perfect, and it isn't great, and everything they think they know to be true is false, even providing reasonable logical solutions to move forward and make it better for everyone, the majority of those people who don't have any knowlege on the subject take it as an attack against their country, an attack against their president, instead of what it actually is, a reasonable solution to solving the problem. People need to get over so much political correctness and keep quiet and be respectful just because the person in power holds the position. Any position that demands respect isn't worthy of it. I think the most perfect system that we can ever hope for is one that is constantly changing and improving. A static system gets stagnant and people change over time, the way in which those people are governed should change accordingly.

- Simplifying the language within the Constitution itself would probably increase public interest in it, and make it easier to understand for the average person, because lets be honest, your average person isn't that bright. But I think a lot of what simplifying the document should consist of should be geared towards making it so the kids learning it understand it, and the importance of it, instead of just memorize it, take a test on it, then move to the next subject... I distinctly remember learning the system of governance in my highschool, and this is coming from a person who had no interest in politics/government in highschool, then on my own found it to be one of the most fascinating subjects available, so obviously the education way of teaching the subject is FLAWED BIG FUCKIN' TIME... now just think of the potential amount of people who would have become important figures in the political world if only they had been shown how interesting it can be before they left highschool... Also, take a look at the amount of people who know little to nothing about the subject, and are content about it. Is that the goal of teaching politics/government? Have a bunch of kids pass the class but 1 out of 100 go on with any slight interest in it at all? Another obvious flaw... I believe there is a lot of word play in the document itself, it's just that most people don't understand exactly what some things state, they may think it means one thing when it actually means another, they don't want to look up exactly what, they may not have a dictionary on hand or whatever, they just skip over it and move on, so simplifying the actual text could potentially have benifits to the American population, but there's the interest problem again, it's hard to get someone to read something 1 page long, let alone the fucking United States Constitution if they have no interest in it...

If the government in question holds certain values true, no matter what, then I believe we could possibly have a completely just government.

1. True, perfect is subjective. I meant perfect more from a functionality standpoint, like you are talking about, and admitting perfection is never actually true perfection. But yeah, you're right.

2. Those are government schools not teaching kids about government. And it also depends on the teacher a lot. I had a civics teacher in 9th grade who I think had retired and left his body there, but I also had a phenomenal US Government teacher my senior year who really got me started on seeing the problems in this country. The power money and special interests have on the process and how it corrupts it most specifically.

3. In regards to education, see above. The problem is we've had about half a century worth of people who have generally stopped caring about what the government says and does, and swallows their answers without looking any closer.

Above all this, like I said, it really comes down to integrity of people. People in power most specifically. We as citizens must have our integrity as well, for our lack of integrity will result in more oppressive rule by those in power, or at least justification for it. However, what do you do when the enforcers won't follow their own rules? When a nation is led by hucksters, hypocrites, and snake-oil salesmen in suits?

A republic sounds all well and good, but twice in history (so far) have the largest empires dissolved from republic to oligarchy (and arguably they weren't even true republics because they both had slavery starting out).

I'm inclined to say there is no better form of government (thus far) than a republic, but as is said in those immortal words, "if you can keep it."

**Opunaya** · 07-08-2008, 10:23 AM

Make me king, and I'll show you a perfect government.