CapeandCowl - The Dying Atheist

Static · #1 (**permalink**) 07-08-2008, 01:05 PM

YouTube - re:The Dying Atheist

This is great, another fantastic perspective on how to look at life and death.

(I reccommend checking out his channel, he's one of the smartest dudes on youtube)

**Brother of Yeshua** · 07-08-2008, 01:45 PM

He's wrong about it not being self-serving.

It's still self-serving: it makes him feel better and/or smarter than a theist. Intellectual elitism.

Plenty of theistic people do the "right thing" because it is the right thing to do and they hold themselves to that level of accountability. They may think they are going to heaven or something of the like, but that's not their motivation.

I'm not saying he's wrong, he makes lots of good points, but atheism is no better in this regard.

Static · 07-08-2008, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother of Yeshua

He's wrong about it not being self-serving.

It's still self-serving: it makes him feel better and/or smarter than a theist. Intellectual elitism.

Plenty of theistic people do the "right thing" because it is the right thing to do and they hold themselves to that level of accountability. They may think they are going to heaven or something of the like, but that's not their motivation.

I'm not saying he's wrong, he makes lots of good points, but atheism is no better in this regard.

I think it's both self serving and for the benifit of mankind. I guess you could say the same for both, being a theist or an atheist, but he does make a good point, the rewards and punishment system of belief that's present in religion is probably at the back of every religious persons mind in one way or another. How can you ever truly do something for someone other than yourself when you think of yourself in every decision you ever make? Atheists never face this question, they do good things because they realize doing those good things have a high probability of causing a good result. I'm not saying that religious people never do good things for the good of the person, I'm just asking the question if you take away the promise of heaven, would those same people do those same things?

**Brother of Yeshua** · 07-08-2008, 07:56 PM

And that is what he makes a lot of good points about.

Frankly, there are consequences for every action we choose. Too often we blame our choices on the others around us instead of taking responsibility for the actions we take. Helping others isn't so much about good and evil as it is simply about being more productive in the long run. It's beneficial to others and yourself, and it's the best action because the most people benefit from it, allowing more people to benefit themselves and others in the future.

I'm not saying sell your flat screen and move to Africa (although for some people, that's what they want) do something simple in your local community. Find a group of people to start something if nothing exists.

If all religions could focus on working as community, the rest of the stuff wouldn't matter, and then we might actually be close to attaining the ideal all these religious structures are striving for so fervently, clinging to dogmatic laws that eliminate any core value to spiritual teachings of any sort.

RazielRedel · 07-09-2008, 07:28 PM

I think that anyone, especially someone who calls themselves a Christian, who is doing good out an attempt to "get into heaven" really has a fundamentally flawed understanding of how salvation works, and more importantly the character of God. The idea isn't do good so that God will reward you. Anyone who has read the bible thoroughly will see that that is not the way he works. Half of the Psalms are about asking why the wicked prosper and the good suffer. There really is nothing someone can do to earn a place in heaven.

The idea is that God punished Jesus for the evil you do in this life, and because of that you are cleared. There isn't any reason to keep you out of heaven because from a legal standpoint you are pure. The reason we do good is not so we can earn some divine favor either in this life or in what comes next, but because we love the one who payed for our debt. It's not a "I've got to repay Jesus for dying for me," and it's not a "I've got to be nice to this person or God will beat me,". What it's actually suppose to be is hard to explain. It's a very humble but very secure asking what God would have you do. It's understanding that you can't do anything on your own, but that God can use you to do something good.

**Brother of Yeshua** · 07-09-2008, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RazielRedel

I think that anyone, especially someone who calls themselves a Christian, who is doing good out an attempt to "get into heaven" really has a fundamentally flawed understanding of how salvation works, and more importantly the character of God. The idea isn't do good so that God will reward you. Anyone who has read the bible thoroughly will see that that is not the way he works. Half of the Psalms are about asking why the wicked prosper and the good suffer. There really is nothing someone can do to earn a place in heaven.

The idea is that God punished Jesus for the evil you do in this life, and because of that you are cleared. There isn't any reason to keep you out of heaven because from a legal standpoint you are pure. The reason we do good is not so we can earn some divine favor either in this life or in what comes next, but because we love the one who payed for our debt. It's not a "I've got to repay Jesus for dying for me," and it's not a "I've got to be nice to this person or God will beat me,". What it's actually suppose to be is hard to explain. It's a very humble but very secure asking what God would have you do. It's understanding that you can't do anything on your own, but that God can use you to do something good.

If Christians got to the heart of the matter, doing good has nothing to do with your "reward" but everything to do with serving God's justice on earth.

Now, that's led to a lot of crazy things over the years, but lets not get into that (at least not yet).

There are quite a few parables and sayings of Jesus that modern Christianity doesn't like to talk about.

The most blatant is Luke 16:1-9 (The parable of the dishonest manager). Read that and try and fit that into modern Christian thought and dogma.

Christians also like to forget the parts about "loving your enemies" and "doing good to those who harm you" and if someone tries to steal your staff "offer them your cloak as well."

The larger idea is that we are to see God within all, treating them as we would treat God, and more importantly, how we expect God to treat us.

Start talking about the parable of the sheep and the goats, or some great quotes involving lines such as "with the same measure you judge is the same measure you will be judged by" or "pull out the 2 by 4 in your own eye before worrying about the splinter in another's" or "love the sinner (person) hate the sin(action)" and watch the protestants quake in their pews.

Not to mention "the love of money is the root of all evil" which wasn't said by Jesus, but isn't any less true (it was either Paul or John....I think....).

It's an idea of equality, fairness, and justice that drives the principles that SHOULD be guiding Christianity.

Instead, they show you snuff films, then tells you Jesus did that for you, so you better love him! (sometimes adding "or else you'll burn burn burn!" for emphasis).

Then, salvation has become "say you love Jesus, cry/wave your hands around/speak in tongues/fall over/something to prove it, get dunked in some water (or sprinkled), sometimes eat some bread and drink some wine/juice, and badabing, badaboom, you're in!"

Considering the vast wealth of words attributed to Jesus regarding the above issues, and the stark lack of words about anything I just typed immediately above, you start to see the root causes of what's going on.

Americanized Christianity, like most Americanized things, lacks any sense of personal responsibility or development, and provides a nice simple package, and all your answers can be found in one spot!

I hope this isn't too off topic, but I feel these are the issues in the Christian church that result in the mindset of "Ooo! Ooo! If I do good things God will love me better than other people!" It adopts the same dominant mindset of our current culture, and overshadows all of the radically passive views espoused by the man they all claim to be so in love with. No wonder they're such assholes to non-Christians.

Ultimately though, these views are used to justify and support (whether consciously or subconsciously) the egotism of the individuals as a way to meet needs for self-love by demeaning others (I'm better than you because of x, y, and z).

Atheists fall into the trap of intellectual elitism (Look how much smarter I am than all these other dumb-asses who believe in something they call God) or how much better they are (Look at all these religions fighting, I'm so much more peaceful than those douchenozzles) or just to brag about all the great things they think they've done to their atheist friends.

However, at the same time, if Christianity focused on equality, fairness, and justice, I think most anyone would be interested in what they had to say, including Atheists.

Regardless, simply saying your religious affiliation has anything to do with your personal motivations is just more group think and the world doesn't need that.

This guy seems to have genuine motivations, but that doesn't mean every atheist in the world does too.

Ol' Patty · 07-10-2008, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother of Yeshua

Americanized Christianity, like most Americanized things, lacks any sense of personal responsibility or development, and provides a nice simple package, and all your answers can be found in one spot!

BAM! That was a nail getting owned.

It's not just Americanized though. I think it is more of a human trait than anything. Americans just happen to be the best examples.