Beast Toast - View Single Post

RazielRedel · 07-10-2008, 02:08 PM

Heh, new isn't quite the word. I've been here for quite a while, I just don't post much. I have a tendency to do a lot of lurking before saying anything, and then doing more lurking afterwards. But I do appreciate the welcome.

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Originally Posted by Static

I also believe there's more to this world than intelligent meat, I'm in complete awe everytime I look into the sky and see how vast the universe is with my own two eyes, everytime I think about how simple atoms inside of stars became these very thoughts that I'm thinking now, and how the universe and everything in it is connected to everything else. Yes, I too believe there is far more to this world than we know, I just do not believe it has to be an intelligent being.

I agree with everything said there. I just happen to think that an intelligent being is a part of it.

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Originally Posted by Static

I see the very opposite. With even the idea of the existence of a God, the men promoting that idea are the men with the power. If those men can make it against the societies law to oppose, reject or deny that God and that idea from being taught throughout the society, those men enherit power over the masses, all in the name of an idea that cannot be questioned. I believe you do not need a God to know what is right and wrong. There have been different scientific studies done to confirm that the 'morality gene' is common within the animal kingdom, yet homo-sapiens are the only ones with any sort of holy book, or God. Without God, you would still know what is right and wrong, figures also show that Christian/religious people commit just as many crimes as atheist's do, what book they happen to follow, or not at all has no correlation to their behavior within society.

See, I understand those problems, and I agree with everything, but that's not the way it's supposed to work. There aren't supposed to be certain men who tell you things that are never to be questioned. Ideally, everyone should know enough about their religion that when something like that happens they can call him on his bullshit. I agree that you don't need a God to tell right from wrong, I just think that the ability to do right as opposed to wrong comes from him. The fact that Christian and "religious" people commit just as many crimes as non-Christians, doesn't surprise me, especially in this country where calling yourself a Christian, regardless of your actions, is both accepted and not questioned.

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Originally Posted by Static

But they would argue they are the ones who truly follow Christ's word, right? This is common among Christians particularly who have conflicting ideas within Christianity. Wouldn't it make sense that all the different denominations of Christianity would all agree with eachother, and so would their followers?

I can call myself a vegetarian until I'm blue in the face. I can even come up with very convincing reasons to call myself a vegetarian. Even if I really believe that I am a vegetarian if I still eat meat on a regular basis with no intent to stop I am not a vegetarian. A lot of the different denominations do not disagree on the most important issues. There are a few weird ones out there but from what I've studied of them, (I will be the first to admit that my knowledge of other religions and the more fanatical factions within my own religion is very incomplete) they have some pretty distinct contradictions from both mainstream Christianity and what the bible says. I'm not saying that any particular one has it down perfectly, but I think that's to be expected since all humans are inherently imperfect.

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Originally Posted by Static

Do you feel this makes you give up on mankind on earth? That you will just worry about the next life and not put too much effort into this one to make it a better place?

No, quite the opposite in fact. I really believe that this world can, and one day will be a much better place. But for me not to do my part would be to disobey the one I claim to serve. I don't really think about what will happen to me after I die at all. That may be because I'm just a teenager and still have that "I'm never gonna die" mentality, but I don't think so. I'm honestly unconcerned about what will happen to me after death. I believe that whatever does happen with be the correct and just thing. That being said, I want other to feel the same way, not to have to worry about death in this life. To be able to use this life the way it should be used. To tell others about my Lord without having to worry about being successful or rich or famous or powerful. They simply do not concern me, and I believe that if the rest of the world felt that way there would be much less pain in it.

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Originally Posted by Static

The origin of life is a very well thought out theory, A-biogenisis. You're correct, it's just a theory, but the evidence supporting it, the experiments performed in labs, the ongoing research discovering new things all the time all support the theory. Scientists are on the verge of creating synthetic life in laboratory conditions using the exact same elements they believe to be around during the formation of the first cells on earth. There are a ton of things that have to be exactly right in order for life to emerge from non-life, but it is not impossible. I thought up this example one day sitting outside, I heard Sam Harris say something I'll probably never forget; Astronomically improbable things happen every day. So one day, when I was sitting in my chair outside, I saw a leaf drop onto my knee, do you know the odds of me being in that exact spot to have that exact leaf fall and land on my knee at that very moment in time? The tree spent years growing, then went through who knows how many different seasons, growing an uncountable number of leaves...then grew that leaf, grew the entire spring, entire summer, then fell when I just happened to be sitting in that very spot. Astronomically improbably things happen every day my friend.

I completely agree. I was merely stating the fact that I find it funny that people think that A-biogenisis is so much more plausible than an intelligent design.

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Originally Posted by Static

Evolution is just a theory, yes, but to say that it has quite a few very large holes in it is disingenuous. What holes? There is so much evidence to support the theory of evolution it is generally accepted as the furthest advance in biology we have to date, and the backbone of biology is formed on the theory of evolution. Medicine's are created to combat disease using the theory of evolution, knowing and showing exactly how mutations occur within cells. Even if the theory of evolution was proved wrong today, that doesn't mean any other theory (creationism) would be right.

I was mainly refering to the holes in the idea of macro-evolution. The theory that every living organism has a common ancestor. There are simply quite a few examples within the animal world that evolution has no explanation for. Mostly examples of symbiosis like the Boxer Crab which uses Anemones as weapons. I'm not claiming that evolution has by any means been disproved, I just find it odd that so many people are completely unwilling and actually aggressive about not listening to theories that come from a different perspective. I may be incorrect about that and it may entirely come from my own slanted experience, but it has none the less been my experience that scientist are just as unwilling to question evolution as you say that religious people are to question what their preacher says.

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Originally Posted by Static

It matters to the people asking the questions about our origins and our universes origins. It matters to a lot of people. Accepting the answer "God did it" is offensive to the human race. The origin of everything is the foundation of religion, without that question, there would be no religion.

I meant in relation to how a person should live his or her life it doesn't matter. I happen to think that God did create the world six thousand years ago. I am however, vastly uneducated in the area, and am completely willing to accept that that belief might be wrong, but either way, it wouldn't effect my daily life.

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Originally Posted by Static

There are some fundamental differences between the two. Lets take the man behind the podium for instance, without you there, without anyone there sitting in church listening to him speak, would he be there, speaking? Probably not right? The man clearly has motivation to keep you in that seat listening to him speak. Now lets take the other man, sitting behind the desk asking important questions about the universe, what's his motivation? His motivation is to learn new things, to discover without any bias, to look upon everything the universe has to offer and figure out the workings behind it all for your benifit, for my benifit, for nothing else. Doesn't it seem slightly ignorant to accept a 2,000 year old book as the way you should live your life today, with todays standards of society? Back when it was written none of these discoveries were ever even thought of, so the authors of the bible had no knowlege of the cosmos or DNA or how cigarette smoke affects your lungs, nothing, so of course none of it would be present within it, and the explination given is that all that stuff isn't real science, and science is evil, or science has some sort of agenda to erase God and religion from the world. This leads many believers not to accept scientific findings as true or even helpful to humanity.

True the person behind the podium does have reason to keep you in your seat, but if he is genuinely trying to preach the Word of God then he would go and find another place to speak. And let's assume that the man behind the desk didn't have anyone who listened to him. He would quickly loose funding and/or his job. He has the exact same reason to want to keep butts in those seats or eyes on his papers. I'm not saying that either is a universal case. There are preachers who are just in it for the money and there are scientists who just genuinely want to learn more about the world around them, but to assume that either is a universal is very disingenuous. I hate to say it but you are right in saying that believer have in the past rejected science because they though it was evil, and frankly that's idiotic. Science is neither good nor evil. It simply seeks to know more about the world around us. How that information is used can be put to good or evil uses, but since science really cannot disprove the existence of God then every jump in it's knowledge should be rejoiced not rejected. I believe that the truly faithful believer would want science done and our knowledge expanded as far as possible, because a truly faithful believer would understand that since science is the search for truth and God truly exists then from some perspective science can be the search for God. A true believer is okay with people questioning God, because just like two plus two will always equal four, God will always exist, and therefore I would be just as happen to allow someone to try to disprove God as I would be for someone to disprove that simple math equation.

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Originally Posted by Static

Where is the evidence?

I never claimed to have any.

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Originally Posted by Static

I can only speak for myself here, but I believe a 100% atheistic society would be much better for humanity. Look at the levels of national happiness with the percentage of the population of believers, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Amsterdam, much of Europe infact is atheist, and they rank the highest on people within the population who are happy. It makes sense really, if all the people realize they only have this one life to live, a lot fewer of them will go out and commit murder or crimes against other people because the idea of heaven or hell enforces those people that, who know's, they might be able to just repent or ask for forgiveness and still get into heaven down the line, even after they may have committed something incredibly terrible and recieved 20 years in prison, sure they're youth is gone, but if they're truly sorry for what they did, they'll still get into heaven. I know not every believer thinks like this, but a significant percentage would probably tell you that if they committed a terrible crime and were truly sorry for it afterwards, their God would still allow them into heaven... I believe atheism would lead to a more intelligent population, which in turn would lead to less violence, more economic growth, more stability, more freedoms and rights, more happiness among all.

I simply disagree. My experience with the world has been that people, who believe that there is nothing after this life will go straight for what they want in this life, and usually that is not a good thing. I agree that some people might think they can just get away with a terrible life with a quick "I'm sorry God," but I think that people seeing that there is no consequences beyond what's done to them in this life would have very little reason not to murder or rape or to rise to power and torture and destroy their population. The thing is that I don't believe that religion usually has that great an impact on peoples lives. I don't think that it's possible to convert an entire country much less the whole world to a certain religion, and even if we did most people would live the exact same way they do now. I doubt that a country that espoused atheism would be any more or less likely to bring freedom or happiness, because while some people would see that as the right thing to do, the type who want power would say that they have no reason to care what the people beneath them want or need.

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Originally Posted by Static

Zen Buddhism teaches many things, much like all the other religions out there. I guarantee you could find plenty of people within any religion who would tell you that their religion is the only one that teaches grace. Again, conflicting ideas within religion itself, every single one of them saying they are the "ABSOLUTE TRUTH" and you must follow them or burn in hell, with so many different religions, if I could quote Sam Harris again "you should automatically assume you're going to hell, just by the sheer odds"...

That may be true. But my experience with every other religion has been that you have to pick yourself up and do it. That it takes work to reach it and if you aren't good enough you won't make it and no one will shed a tear. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

I appreciate the lack of anger and disdain in your responses. It's a very nice change.